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> but there is also something morally very questionable about making promises That really depends; some company's legal department might go overboard with the

> but there is also something morally very questionable about making promises That really depends; some company's legal department might go overboard with the stuff they make you sign 'or no deal'. I have seen a lot of them myself. It is comparable to job ads; 'wanted, junior with 40 years experience in React and every other tech ever invented'. Lawyers just want/need to cover ever eventuality. If you sign that doesn't mean you broke your promise; it's just how it works. If you don't sign this kind of contract you might never get this kind of work. Maybe it works different in different parts of the world, but we signed some crazy things (which were dealbreakers if not signed) in the past and no-one ever sued us for it ; it's just their legal department making sure the company is protected in the event of malice. Nothing to do with morals. It depends a lot about the case though and reading Pud (who is a known shoot from the hip guy), I would say as worded here it's generally bad advice to do it like that.

quanticle 9y ago
That really depends; some company's legal department might go overboard with the stuff they make you sign 'or no deal'. Mike Monteiro talks about this in his "Fuck you, pay me" talk [1]. He says that a lot of companies have boilerplate contracts which have outdated provisions like requiring you to hand over printouts of source code, or delivering software on floppy diskettes. The proper response is to have a lawyer yourself who can review the contract and explain to the company's legal counsel that 1) these contract provisions are unreasonable and outdated and 2) that striking these provisions will not create additional liabilities for the company. The reasons these contracts go overboard is because every time the company gets burned, it adds some scar tissue to the contract to prevent that same eventually from occurring again, regardless of whether it's applicable to the task at hand. Maybe it works different in different parts of the world, but we signed some crazy things (which were dealbreakers if not signed) in the past and no-one ever sued us for it I will be extremely honest. You got lucky. You put your head in the mouth of the lion, and it didn't bite. It doesn't mean that what you did was a good idea, it just means that you got away with it. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U
bitwize 9y ago
> It is comparable to job ads; 'wanted, junior with 40 years experience in React and every other tech ever invented'. My experience has always been that if a job req calls for n years of experience in technology X, not having that demonstrable experience means you won't even get called in for an interview. Period. So if it really is like that then these contracts are to be taken seriously, as companies will expect to be able to hold you to the terms.
- tluyben2 9y ago
  Again, maybe it differs from region to region / country to country, but I have seen many many job ads asking for more years of experience than the technology actually exists. Or asking for juniors with more than 5 years experience which is simply not a junior. I don't think it will be hard to find job ads that simply are not realistic or actually cannot be filled. That happens on purpose as well in some countries; if you cannot fill a job locally, you can get people from other countries.
- ghettoimp 9y ago
  That's definitely not my experience. If you want to get an interview, forget about n years of experience in technology X. Instead, work on meeting someone at the company who can hand your resume to their boss.

quanticle 9y ago

That really depends; some company's legal department might go overboard with the stuff they make you sign 'or no deal'. Mike Monteiro talks about this in his "Fuck you, pay me" talk [1]. He says that a lot of companies have boilerplate contracts which have outdated provisions like requiring you to hand over printouts of source code, or delivering software on floppy diskettes. The proper response is to have a lawyer yourself who can review the contract and explain to the company's legal counsel that 1) these contract provisions are unreasonable and outdated and 2) that striking these provisions will not create additional liabilities for the company. The reasons these contracts go overboard is because every time the company gets burned, it adds some scar tissue to the contract to prevent that same eventually from occurring again, regardless of whether it's applicable to the task at hand. Maybe it works different in different parts of the world, but we signed some crazy things (which were dealbreakers if not signed) in the past and no-one ever sued us for it I will be extremely honest. You got lucky. You put your head in the mouth of the lion, and it didn't bite. It doesn't mean that what you did was a good idea, it just means that you got away with it. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkLVRt6c1U

bitwize 9y ago

> It is comparable to job ads; 'wanted, junior with 40 years experience in React and every other tech ever invented'. My experience has always been that if a job req calls for n years of experience in technology X, not having that demonstrable experience means you won't even get called in for an interview. Period. So if it really is like that then these contracts are to be taken seriously, as companies will expect to be able to hold you to the terms.

tluyben2 9y ago
Again, maybe it differs from region to region / country to country, but I have seen many many job ads asking for more years of experience than the technology actually exists. Or asking for juniors with more than 5 years experience which is simply not a junior. I don't think it will be hard to find job ads that simply are not realistic or actually cannot be filled. That happens on purpose as well in some countries; if you cannot fill a job locally, you can get people from other countries.
ghettoimp 9y ago
That's definitely not my experience. If you want to get an interview, forget about n years of experience in technology X. Instead, work on meeting someone at the company who can hand your resume to their boss.