13 ms·

100 days of postmarketOS

177 points by yuvadam 9y ago

mrmondo 9y ago
Having Google as such a huge controlling force over the operating systems on so many mobile devices has scared me for a long time, given Google’s business model of the customer and data about individuals - I welcome any well managed projects that set out to offer more ethical alternatives.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  If you want to be more scared, and happen to own an Androdid device, check the data Google has on you by virtue of Play Services sending information every time your're online. For example on location history in Google Maps.
  - gkya 9y ago
    Is Apple any better on this (real question)?
    - yuvadam 9y ago
      Apple has their own problems, but their business is to sell products, not to track you. Google tracks you aggressively and that is their business model. Suggest reading Aral Balkan on this topic [1] [1] - https://ar.al/notes/apple-vs-google-on-privacy-a-tale-of-absolute-competitive-advantage/ https://ar.al/notes/apple-vs-google-on-privacy-a-tale-of-abs...
      - oneplane 9y ago
        Interestingly, with Microsoft, it's like a weird mixed bag as if they haven't made up their mind yet. They do kinda want to sell you stuff, but they also want some of your data, but not the same data that Google wants, and they may or may not have a good plan on what to do with that data.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        I suspect we'll end up in some weird freemium model offering with Microsoft. For the right price, everything can be shut off, but Windows 10 Enterprise is all said and done over $500 a seat.
        cakedoggie 9y ago
        Microsoft are busy trying to reinvent themselves, so they will do whatever gets them the most money, no matter the consequences or privacy concerns.
      - whyagaindavid 9y ago
        Love @aral and his aims. But privacy must not be only for the rich. (See Zuck having bought all houses in the street to ensure privacy)! But having discussed with Aral, Apple is available only for people that have the $$$.
        daenney 9y ago
        You don't have to spend $$$ on an iPhone. If you want the latest factory fresh bling, sure. But an iPhone 6s goes for about 350$, a 6 for around 200$. Given that Apple supplies most of their devices with 4-5 years worth of updates that's something to consider. It ends up boiling down to how much is your privacy worth to you vs. how much do you want the latest and greatest, assuming you're comfortable with having an iOS device. That said, Apple isn't the only one you can turn to for more privacy concious devices. And even on Android devices you can do a whole lot to stay fairly private, but you'll need to avoid Google services as much as possible. Unfortunately protecting your privacy requires much more (active) effort on Android. One of the reasons I'm actually looking forward to postmarketOS is the ability to use a lot of my older devices in a much nicer, privacy sensitive way. If this takes off postmarketOS has what it takes to make privacy a lot cheaper. Unfortunately nothing stops you to then go around and continue using tools that have an interest in eroding your privacy, but Apple won't stop you from that either.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    And then go here, delete as much as you can, and turn off as many categories of data collection as you can: https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols
djsumdog 9y ago
This project has come a long way, and it seems ultra cool. When I first saw it, I thought it was going to be more of a "turn your old phone into a Raspberry Pi type device" .. basically a little embedded machine you could use to control other things or maybe home automation. However it now looks like a much broader project, with some big GUI and driver goals. It'd be pretty amazing if we end up with a Linux distribution you can just install on most old devices and continue using them as little usable Plasma devices.
- ollieparanoid 9y ago
  That would be one future I would like to live in!
  - yorwba 9y ago
    Off-topic: I subscribed to the RSS feed of your blog to get updates on postmarketOS development (just watching from the sidelines), but the new website doesn't seem to have anything like that. Could you add a way to subscribe, or should I just watch the GitHub repo instead?
    - ollieparanoid 9y ago
      Thanks for letting us know. For now, you can subscribe https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org - and I will make an issue to add a RSS feed!
      - ollieparanoid 9y ago
        Here we go: https://postmarketos.org/blog/feed.atom https://postmarketos.org/blog/feed.atom (Thanks to new contributor marten-de-vries for implementing it so fast \o/ <https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org/issues/29> https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org/issues/29>)
appleflaxen 9y ago
this is such an awesome product, but the name "postmarketos" is too descriptive and sterile. it's probably the least of their concerns, but i think a name / branding would be helpful. any HN brand experts? maybe you could make a contribution (in the form of expertise/suggestions)
- lsh 9y ago
  I think it's a perfect name.
  - appleflaxen 9y ago
    how come? i think it could be better because 1. it's kind of long 2. it's sterile, devoid of emotion, and hard to link emotion to via marketing or branding 3. it's too technical - the common phone OS consumer doesn't know what postmarket means, and don't know what an OS is 4. it works against itself if it becomes wildly successful, and OEMs want to put it on the phone at the time of sale... at that point it's just "MarketOS"? None of these are a huge deal, or detract from the overall value of the project (it's awesome!); but I can't see an argument for keeping it. what makes it perfect, in your eyes? And i'm not a brand expert; i would love to see points by someone who knows a lot more about marketing and branding.
    - lsh 9y ago
      > 1. it's kind of long "Cyanogenmod" comes to mind. But it doesn't matter. This is an OS for old hardware. New and sexy get marketable names. > 2. it's sterile, devoid of emotion, and hard to link emotion to via marketing or branding Says you, but it doesn't matter because this is an OS for old hardware. It isn't a sexy product for sexy new phones. No sex here whatsoever! > 3. it's too technical - the common phone OS consumer doesn't know what postmarket means, and don't know what an OS is really?? ... anyway, I think I see your problem now. You're thinking of this as an alternative OS for new phones. > 4. it works against itself if it becomes wildly successful, and OEMs want to put it on the phone at the time of sale... at that point it's just "MarketOS"? hell, lets just call it "mOS". Moss will get all the OEMs to it's yard, right? Anyway, /end-snark Marketing and branding are ugly concerns for shallow and aggressive people. Turn away now before you do become an expert. Actual problems need solving, like hundreds of obsolete and unsupported phone brands and billions of physical devices.
yuvadam 9y ago
Some comments on a more personal level about the project: I actually learned about postmarketOS 50 days ago when I saw the previous "50 days of pmOS" post here on HN, and since then I've become a pretty active contributor to the project. I can't remember the last time I've contributed so intensely to a single FLOSS project and I attribute that to the community being built around developing postmarketOS and the first and foremost goal of having fun while developing, all the while keeping in mind that are much larger long-term goals we would want to get to some day that I very much support. Props to ollieparanoid and all the other developers working on pmOS, I really enjoy their positive attitude towards technical and community development alike.
tombert 9y ago
If I knew anything about kernel or operating design, I would try and port this over to the Nexus 6. Is the developing community for PostmarketOS amenable to newbies in that space?
- yuvadam 9y ago
  There's really not much to know! If you find a good supported kernel on similar projects like LineageOS / CyanogenMod then you're already that much closer to a working device. The rest is packaging, testing and occasional patching. As a general overview here's the documentation on how to go about porting a new device: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Porting_to_a_new_device https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Porting_to_a_new_device For anything else, come over to Matrix/IRC and you'll receive all the help you need :)
Tade0 9y ago
I would love to install this on one of my former phones, but... both of them had some kind of fatal hardware failure.
codedokode 9y ago
While I like the idea of making old devices usable for a longer time, I don't like the approach they have choosen. Android has Java application framework developed by Google that is well tested and stable. It works great and there are many applications written using this framework. There is F-Droid. Why replace it with some linux desktop environment like KDE? It probably is buggy, unstable, not optimized for mobile devices, there are no apps and nobody is going to write them. They are just making another always-broken linux distribution. I am afraid they will also make some awful desktop environment with excess 3D effects and gigantic icons like Gnome 3.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  It's not one or the other, these devices can run Anbox.
- posguy 9y ago
  You can use anything you'd run on a normal distro, and per the other commenter Anbox allows you to run normal android apps. I'd encourage you to avoid knocking KDE Plasma, last time I installed it on a x86 tablet it wasn't half bad at all, and that was a few years back. Its only apt to have improved since!
- yuvadam 9y ago
  The approach postmarketOS is pushing is that of Choice. You get to choose what you want to run on your device, just as with any other Linux distro. No apps, seriously? Take any Linux app, it'll run on pmOS. We're not in the business of building desktop environments, we just package existing software for use on mobile devices. Nor is this "another distro", this is Alpine Linux (is that also broken?) with some extra packages for device support.
  - frozenport 9y ago
    Will Pokemon Go run?
    - jameskegel 9y ago

177 points by yuvadam 9y ago

Having Google as such a huge controlling force over the operating systems on so many mobile devices has scared me for a long time, given Google’s business model of the customer and data about individuals - I welcome any well managed projects that set out to offer more ethical alternatives.

pjmlp 9y ago
If you want to be more scared, and happen to own an Androdid device, check the data Google has on you by virtue of Play Services sending information every time your're online. For example on location history in Google Maps.
- gkya 9y ago
  Is Apple any better on this (real question)?
  - yuvadam 9y ago
    Apple has their own problems, but their business is to sell products, not to track you. Google tracks you aggressively and that is their business model. Suggest reading Aral Balkan on this topic [1] [1] - https://ar.al/notes/apple-vs-google-on-privacy-a-tale-of-absolute-competitive-advantage/ https://ar.al/notes/apple-vs-google-on-privacy-a-tale-of-abs...
    - oneplane 9y ago
      Interestingly, with Microsoft, it's like a weird mixed bag as if they haven't made up their mind yet. They do kinda want to sell you stuff, but they also want some of your data, but not the same data that Google wants, and they may or may not have a good plan on what to do with that data.
      - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        I suspect we'll end up in some weird freemium model offering with Microsoft. For the right price, everything can be shut off, but Windows 10 Enterprise is all said and done over $500 a seat.
      - cakedoggie 9y ago
        Microsoft are busy trying to reinvent themselves, so they will do whatever gets them the most money, no matter the consequences or privacy concerns.
    - whyagaindavid 9y ago
      Love @aral and his aims. But privacy must not be only for the rich. (See Zuck having bought all houses in the street to ensure privacy)! But having discussed with Aral, Apple is available only for people that have the $$$.
      - daenney 9y ago
        You don't have to spend $$$ on an iPhone. If you want the latest factory fresh bling, sure. But an iPhone 6s goes for about 350$, a 6 for around 200$. Given that Apple supplies most of their devices with 4-5 years worth of updates that's something to consider. It ends up boiling down to how much is your privacy worth to you vs. how much do you want the latest and greatest, assuming you're comfortable with having an iOS device. That said, Apple isn't the only one you can turn to for more privacy concious devices. And even on Android devices you can do a whole lot to stay fairly private, but you'll need to avoid Google services as much as possible. Unfortunately protecting your privacy requires much more (active) effort on Android. One of the reasons I'm actually looking forward to postmarketOS is the ability to use a lot of my older devices in a much nicer, privacy sensitive way. If this takes off postmarketOS has what it takes to make privacy a lot cheaper. Unfortunately nothing stops you to then go around and continue using tools that have an interest in eroding your privacy, but Apple won't stop you from that either.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  And then go here, delete as much as you can, and turn off as many categories of data collection as you can: https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols https://myaccount.google.com/activitycontrols

djsumdog 9y ago

This project has come a long way, and it seems ultra cool. When I first saw it, I thought it was going to be more of a "turn your old phone into a Raspberry Pi type device" .. basically a little embedded machine you could use to control other things or maybe home automation. However it now looks like a much broader project, with some big GUI and driver goals. It'd be pretty amazing if we end up with a Linux distribution you can just install on most old devices and continue using them as little usable Plasma devices.

ollieparanoid 9y ago
That would be one future I would like to live in!
- yorwba 9y ago
  Off-topic: I subscribed to the RSS feed of your blog to get updates on postmarketOS development (just watching from the sidelines), but the new website doesn't seem to have anything like that. Could you add a way to subscribe, or should I just watch the GitHub repo instead?
  - ollieparanoid 9y ago
    Thanks for letting us know. For now, you can subscribe https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org - and I will make an issue to add a RSS feed!
    - ollieparanoid 9y ago
      Here we go: https://postmarketos.org/blog/feed.atom https://postmarketos.org/blog/feed.atom (Thanks to new contributor marten-de-vries for implementing it so fast \o/ <https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org/issues/29> https://github.com/postmarketOS/postmarketos.org/issues/29>)

appleflaxen 9y ago

this is such an awesome product, but the name "postmarketos" is too descriptive and sterile. it's probably the least of their concerns, but i think a name / branding would be helpful. any HN brand experts? maybe you could make a contribution (in the form of expertise/suggestions)

lsh 9y ago
I think it's a perfect name.
- appleflaxen 9y ago
  how come? i think it could be better because 1. it's kind of long 2. it's sterile, devoid of emotion, and hard to link emotion to via marketing or branding 3. it's too technical - the common phone OS consumer doesn't know what postmarket means, and don't know what an OS is 4. it works against itself if it becomes wildly successful, and OEMs want to put it on the phone at the time of sale... at that point it's just "MarketOS"? None of these are a huge deal, or detract from the overall value of the project (it's awesome!); but I can't see an argument for keeping it. what makes it perfect, in your eyes? And i'm not a brand expert; i would love to see points by someone who knows a lot more about marketing and branding.
  - lsh 9y ago
    > 1. it's kind of long "Cyanogenmod" comes to mind. But it doesn't matter. This is an OS for old hardware. New and sexy get marketable names. > 2. it's sterile, devoid of emotion, and hard to link emotion to via marketing or branding Says you, but it doesn't matter because this is an OS for old hardware. It isn't a sexy product for sexy new phones. No sex here whatsoever! > 3. it's too technical - the common phone OS consumer doesn't know what postmarket means, and don't know what an OS is really?? ... anyway, I think I see your problem now. You're thinking of this as an alternative OS for new phones. > 4. it works against itself if it becomes wildly successful, and OEMs want to put it on the phone at the time of sale... at that point it's just "MarketOS"? hell, lets just call it "mOS". Moss will get all the OEMs to it's yard, right? Anyway, /end-snark Marketing and branding are ugly concerns for shallow and aggressive people. Turn away now before you do become an expert. Actual problems need solving, like hundreds of obsolete and unsupported phone brands and billions of physical devices.

yuvadam 9y ago

Some comments on a more personal level about the project: I actually learned about postmarketOS 50 days ago when I saw the previous "50 days of pmOS" post here on HN, and since then I've become a pretty active contributor to the project. I can't remember the last time I've contributed so intensely to a single FLOSS project and I attribute that to the community being built around developing postmarketOS and the first and foremost goal of having fun while developing, all the while keeping in mind that are much larger long-term goals we would want to get to some day that I very much support. Props to ollieparanoid and all the other developers working on pmOS, I really enjoy their positive attitude towards technical and community development alike.

tombert 9y ago

If I knew anything about kernel or operating design, I would try and port this over to the Nexus 6. Is the developing community for PostmarketOS amenable to newbies in that space?

yuvadam 9y ago
There's really not much to know! If you find a good supported kernel on similar projects like LineageOS / CyanogenMod then you're already that much closer to a working device. The rest is packaging, testing and occasional patching. As a general overview here's the documentation on how to go about porting a new device: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Porting_to_a_new_device https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Porting_to_a_new_device For anything else, come over to Matrix/IRC and you'll receive all the help you need :)

Tade0 9y ago

I would love to install this on one of my former phones, but... both of them had some kind of fatal hardware failure.

codedokode 9y ago

While I like the idea of making old devices usable for a longer time, I don't like the approach they have choosen. Android has Java application framework developed by Google that is well tested and stable. It works great and there are many applications written using this framework. There is F-Droid. Why replace it with some linux desktop environment like KDE? It probably is buggy, unstable, not optimized for mobile devices, there are no apps and nobody is going to write them. They are just making another always-broken linux distribution. I am afraid they will also make some awful desktop environment with excess 3D effects and gigantic icons like Gnome 3.

Brakenshire 9y ago
It's not one or the other, these devices can run Anbox.
posguy 9y ago
You can use anything you'd run on a normal distro, and per the other commenter Anbox allows you to run normal android apps. I'd encourage you to avoid knocking KDE Plasma, last time I installed it on a x86 tablet it wasn't half bad at all, and that was a few years back. Its only apt to have improved since!
yuvadam 9y ago
The approach postmarketOS is pushing is that of Choice. You get to choose what you want to run on your device, just as with any other Linux distro. No apps, seriously? Take any Linux app, it'll run on pmOS. We're not in the business of building desktop environments, we just package existing software for use on mobile devices. Nor is this "another distro", this is Alpine Linux (is that also broken?) with some extra packages for device support.
- frozenport 9y ago
  Will Pokemon Go run?
  - jameskegel 9y ago