4 ms·

The act of creating them is bad, the porn itself is not. It's just data that harms nobody.

AlexeyBrin 9y ago
Think about what you are claiming ... by consuming child/rape/violent porn for example, you indirectly encourage the production of new data.
- snakeanus 9y ago
  How so?
  - rad88 9y ago
    By indicating you want it and being a participant in the market for it. There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. To make you happy. It's that sick.
    - snakeanus 9y ago
      > There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. To make you happy. I doubt that anyone would make child pornography in order to satisfy someone else. I would be pretty sure that one would do it either for a huge financial gain, personal satisfaction, or both. The people who upload it for free would still rape children even if they were not able to upload it anywhere. Considering that I would say that this argument is even worse than saying that the media should stop reporting terrorist attacks to disencourage the terrorists from performing terrorist acts (assuming that they do it for personal fame or to scare people). The first could be solved by catching people who are buying and selling. However none of these can be solved by catching people who simply watch or distribute but do not create nor buy child pornography - catching them would be arresting them for a thoughtcrime.
    - etplayer 9y ago
      >By indicating you want it and being a participant in the market for it. Does it count as being in the market if no exchange of money takes place? Is Github a market, for example? If not, this would seem to invalidate the idea at least when the material is found by chance or provided free. >There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. That's true, but if you're using this as an argument against all the material then I think I should step in and say that it does not apply to all the material, or at least, you haven't provided evidence that it does. I don't doubt it happens, but to use this as a general argument seems to fall flat on its face. The "good porn" analogues are people who record themselves because they like the attention. But I think this is a minority.
      - openasocket 9y ago
        Generally you have to pay or provide some child porn of your own to access those sites. And they have forums for them, talking about the best way to find a child to molest, etc. Plus there's the torment of the victim, knowing that there are people out there to this day jerking off to video of the worst experience of their lives.
        etplayer 9y ago
        I'm someone familiar with how it works, though obviously I do not search for the material myself - but it depends where one goes. I2P is known for its torrent capability and the torrents can be freely obtained. Tor has various forums that are free to sign up for. Freenet has many, many sites from what I can tell are freesites for this content. I simply don't buy the idea that the majority of CP advertised on the dark web is only available for pay or exchange; I'm sure a lot of it is, but this "market effect" thing is unsubstantiated as far as I can tell, even though many would like to believe it's a good argument against something heinous, that doesn't mean we should just accept it. >Plus there's the torment of the victim, knowing that there are people out there to this day jerking off to video of the worst experience of their lives. This I can understand and actually I regard it as a bigger motivator to the illegalisation of possession. However often they don't know, and could you reassure them that it's not happening if you put an effort toward eradicating only their images? And if they don't know, doesn't that also eradicate this argument in those cases too? What if they don't have a problem with it, or rather, they are neutral about it? The harm would have to be found, and if there is no harm, the argument collapses in that case. Of course the argument also does not apply to pornography in which the victims are dead or unconscious etc. which would seem to, considering only this argument, make such material permissible.
anigbrowl 9y ago
Ask a child abuse survivor what they think of child porn. Consuming a product whose manufacture involved coercion of participants is not a neutral moral choice.
- snakeanus 9y ago
  > Consuming a product whose manufacture involved coercion of participants is not a neutral moral choice. I would claim that it is as long as it harms nobody and as long as it does not benefit the creator.
  - openasocket 9y ago
    The overwhelming majority of child porn sites either require payment or require one to provide some child porn of their own as a barrier to entry. In either case, the creator is benefiting. You haven't met a victim before. For them, the knowledge that their abuse is being watched by people for sexual pleasure all around the world years after it happened is a profound source of psychological trauma. It harms them.
    - snakeanus 9y ago
      > I overwhelming majority of child porn sites either require payment I honestly doubt that but even then the money would go to the site owners, not to child rapists directly. Anyhow, as I said in another post we could simply also hold accountable these who pay for it - after all the act of paying for it would cause the harm, not the data by itself. > one to provide some child porn of their own as a barrier to entry Create their own or just post some of what they have collected? Only the first one causes harm. > the knowledge that their abuse is being watched by people for sexual pleasure all around the world years after it happened is a profound source of psychological trauma I fail to see how they would know that they are being watched or how watching it being illegal eases their thoughts. > It harms them. No, only physical actions like rape could harm them, distributing data on the dark web does not.
      - 9y ago

Think about what you are claiming ... by consuming child/rape/violent porn for example, you indirectly encourage the production of new data.

snakeanus 9y ago
How so?
- rad88 9y ago
  By indicating you want it and being a participant in the market for it. There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. To make you happy. It's that sick.
  - snakeanus 9y ago
    > There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. To make you happy. I doubt that anyone would make child pornography in order to satisfy someone else. I would be pretty sure that one would do it either for a huge financial gain, personal satisfaction, or both. The people who upload it for free would still rape children even if they were not able to upload it anywhere. Considering that I would say that this argument is even worse than saying that the media should stop reporting terrorist attacks to disencourage the terrorists from performing terrorist acts (assuming that they do it for personal fame or to scare people). The first could be solved by catching people who are buying and selling. However none of these can be solved by catching people who simply watch or distribute but do not create nor buy child pornography - catching them would be arresting them for a thoughtcrime.
  - etplayer 9y ago
    >By indicating you want it and being a participant in the market for it. Does it count as being in the market if no exchange of money takes place? Is Github a market, for example? If not, this would seem to invalidate the idea at least when the material is found by chance or provided free. >There are people who, knowing you are like them and enjoy that sort of thing, will make it for you. That's true, but if you're using this as an argument against all the material then I think I should step in and say that it does not apply to all the material, or at least, you haven't provided evidence that it does. I don't doubt it happens, but to use this as a general argument seems to fall flat on its face. The "good porn" analogues are people who record themselves because they like the attention. But I think this is a minority.
    - openasocket 9y ago
      Generally you have to pay or provide some child porn of your own to access those sites. And they have forums for them, talking about the best way to find a child to molest, etc. Plus there's the torment of the victim, knowing that there are people out there to this day jerking off to video of the worst experience of their lives.
      - etplayer 9y ago
        I'm someone familiar with how it works, though obviously I do not search for the material myself - but it depends where one goes. I2P is known for its torrent capability and the torrents can be freely obtained. Tor has various forums that are free to sign up for. Freenet has many, many sites from what I can tell are freesites for this content. I simply don't buy the idea that the majority of CP advertised on the dark web is only available for pay or exchange; I'm sure a lot of it is, but this "market effect" thing is unsubstantiated as far as I can tell, even though many would like to believe it's a good argument against something heinous, that doesn't mean we should just accept it. >Plus there's the torment of the victim, knowing that there are people out there to this day jerking off to video of the worst experience of their lives. This I can understand and actually I regard it as a bigger motivator to the illegalisation of possession. However often they don't know, and could you reassure them that it's not happening if you put an effort toward eradicating only their images? And if they don't know, doesn't that also eradicate this argument in those cases too? What if they don't have a problem with it, or rather, they are neutral about it? The harm would have to be found, and if there is no harm, the argument collapses in that case. Of course the argument also does not apply to pornography in which the victims are dead or unconscious etc. which would seem to, considering only this argument, make such material permissible.

anigbrowl 9y ago

Ask a child abuse survivor what they think of child porn. Consuming a product whose manufacture involved coercion of participants is not a neutral moral choice.

snakeanus 9y ago
> Consuming a product whose manufacture involved coercion of participants is not a neutral moral choice. I would claim that it is as long as it harms nobody and as long as it does not benefit the creator.
- openasocket 9y ago
  The overwhelming majority of child porn sites either require payment or require one to provide some child porn of their own as a barrier to entry. In either case, the creator is benefiting. You haven't met a victim before. For them, the knowledge that their abuse is being watched by people for sexual pleasure all around the world years after it happened is a profound source of psychological trauma. It harms them.
  - snakeanus 9y ago
    > I overwhelming majority of child porn sites either require payment I honestly doubt that but even then the money would go to the site owners, not to child rapists directly. Anyhow, as I said in another post we could simply also hold accountable these who pay for it - after all the act of paying for it would cause the harm, not the data by itself. > one to provide some child porn of their own as a barrier to entry Create their own or just post some of what they have collected? Only the first one causes harm. > the knowledge that their abuse is being watched by people for sexual pleasure all around the world years after it happened is a profound source of psychological trauma I fail to see how they would know that they are being watched or how watching it being illegal eases their thoughts. > It harms them. No, only physical actions like rape could harm them, distributing data on the dark web does not.
    - 9y ago