12 ms·

It's funny how thick HNers are about Bitcoin. I believe it's evidence of the sort of passive conservatism of the tech community. Bitcoin is some utopian shit, t

It's funny how thick HNers are about Bitcoin. I believe it's evidence of the sort of passive conservatism of the tech community. Bitcoin is some utopian shit, the decentralized technology dream that has a ton of traction, yet many of you just can't seem to get behind it. Is it because YC is an ultra capitalistic investment fund and Bitcoin is just too anarchist for its fanboys? For all the people out there saying, "I cant find a use case", my question to you is, have you ever used it?! If you have, did you notice that there wasn't a middleman taking a cut when you sent the money? I mean, do you have any fucking idea how much money businesses pay to the credit card companies? Get on board guys.

cyphunk 9y ago
heh, anarchist? In the course of perhaps 2 or 3 years Bitcoin has turned more anarchists I know into greedy capitalists than anything else over my entire lifetime. HN is certainly "on board" as ycombinator and affiliates invests in various blockchain retailed companies
ikeboy 9y ago
I've used it and noticed how miners will only include your transaction in a reasonable length of time if you pay a fee, and even that is artificially low due to the subsidy.
cheez 9y ago
Except anyone can figure out where my money comes from and where it goes. No thanks!
- cyphunk 9y ago
  It still blows my mind that this isn't a bigger issue. Trying to retain any privacy with Bitcoin is an arduous process.
- omarchowdhury 9y ago
  Okay. So I'm anyone. How am I going to know what your addresses are? Starting from where I am right now all the way over here. You did say anyone.
  - cyphunk 9y ago
    the first time you ever pay anyone for anything the probability that this person can determine your entire net worth is much much higher than if you were to use any other means of value exchange (Cash, credit, check, etc).
    - omarchowdhury 9y ago
      You're argument rests on the assumption that people are putting their entire, or close to entire net worth into BTC.
      - cyphunk 9y ago
        I'm playing on the fantasy that Bitcoin or similar could ever be a predominant means of value exchange or storage. It's a fantasy many hold.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
forthefuture 9y ago
The best case scenario for Bitcoin is reaching a consistent price for the rest of its lifetime. That scenario means there's no reason to "invest" in it because ideally it would never change in value. Only people trying to cash out need people buying in. If you were really invested in the long term you'd rather people not buy in so you can buy more at a lower price. Bitcoin also has fees. The only reason the fees are lower than credit cards are because people in China can afford to burn electricity at a loss just to turn their Chinese money into anything else. You still have to pay taxes on the capital gains. And you can't pay taxes in Bitcoin.
- tradersam 9y ago
  I don't agree. The best case scenario for bitcoin is it becoming the de facto monetary standard, meaning there would be no reason to buy or cash out, as everything would be priced in bitcoin.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    And that will never happen for the reason just stated: you can't pay taxes in Bitcoin.
    - aussieguy1234 9y ago
      At the moment. Surely govts will accept cryptocurrency for paying taxes at some point.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rizalp 9y ago
    I don't agree with you Bitcoin will never replace current fiat money as it is inherently flawed: price fluctuate too much, and favor early owner of it.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
grizzles 9y ago
s/Bitcoin/Christianity/g
deweller 9y ago
The tone of this comment is harsh and inflammatory. But I agree with the sentiment. The tech is genuinely interesting and certainly doesn't lack hype. That is usually a formula for positive comments on Hacker News. So I'm genuinely curious why so many users here are against Bitcoin. Is it because they didn't buy in early and want to justify missing the boat? Does it make people feel their own startup is somehow less relevant? Does it threaten the traditional VC funding model?
- grizzles 9y ago
  I don't like it because it's bad for the environment. Eventually someone like Vanguard will come along and offer a blockchain with real value behind it. After this, all the hype around bitcoin will just look embarrassing in the aftermath. The SEC was useful when information was hard to come by, but now it's just standing in the way of progress.
- johnwheeler 9y ago
  > Is it because they didn't buy in early and want to justify missing the boat? Not one bit. It's because people are losing their heads over it, it's got classic bubble written all over it, and you've got people who've made money and think they're all the wiser for it. They arrogantly carry a sentiment that detractors are just jealous. Human nature to do that--I get it. There's a saying I heard, something like "Sure, you made a lot of money buying the stocks of tobacco companies. So what? You're still an asshole." In my mind, buying Bitcoin is like shorting the US financial system with the idea that it sucks and should to hell anyway. But, our system with all it's flaws works pretty damn well. It shouldn't be taken for granted and bet against.
parenthephobia 9y ago
How are miners fees practically different from credit card companies' transaction fees?
GhostVII 9y ago
I just don't see what benefits Bitcoin gives to me over a regular bank. First of all because it is decentralised, it is much less scalable than the current system, so I don't think it is going to be able to replace regular banking anytime soon (although I don't know a tonne about the scalability issues). Also I like to have a centralised system, because if my bitcoin gets stolen/I screw up and lose it, it is gone forever. If my money gets stolen somehow, I call up the bank and they reverse the charges. Having a central authority is also pretty nice because they also give me lots of other benefits like credit card rewards, making it really easy to move my money around into different savings accounts or investments, etc. And regular currencies are also backed by the government, so are incredibly stable, unlike Bitcoin which changes values very quickly. Bitcoin is also deflationary, which is a bad trait for a currency to have, as it discourages investment, and encourages people to hoard money instead of spending it. I'm sure there are use cases for Bitcoin, but I don't think it is "some utopian shit", since the current system works super well for most people.
- Shorel 9y ago
  Current system works well for most people in a handful of well developed countries. Bitcoin is a global phenomenon.
- rizalp 9y ago
  I'm very much agree to this, especially the deflationary part. Current Bitcoin pricing seems to favor the early `investors`, and fluctuate too much. That is not acceptable for use as money, which must store a stable value for a long time...
  - urza 9y ago
    US Dollar lost 95% of it's purchasing power over the last century, so much for "must store a stable value for a long time". The wealth distribution of dollar is based on how many more people your grandfather killed than my grandfather. I don't have any problem with currency where initial distribution rewards people who took investment risks because they saw potential in innovative new technology. And volatility - volatility in bitcoin is actually smaller every year, and this trend will continue. And btw volatility is natural and healthy. It's when something is not moving that you should be worried.
MicroBerto 9y ago
It's because I can't use it to do business with anyone in my market, I can't buy anything I want with it, it's volatile, and it's an absurd waste of energy. Enjoy the run, but sell at the right times because ultimately it will end in some form of tragedy.
- srge 9y ago
  You can buy everything you want with the US dollar but given the abyssal debt of the US government, one could think it will also end in tragedy.
  - rizalp 9y ago
    Only if the US lost its Political Power. Currently the USD still holds its value because OPEC standardize on using it for the Oil Currency (Petrodollar), and early aggressive lending to the third world country with USD. When electric cars become mainstream, I expect there will be a turmoil in the USD
prostoalex 9y ago
> did you notice that there wasn't a middleman taking a cut when you sent the money? I mean, do you have any fucking idea how much money businesses pay to the credit card companies This guy noticed https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-you-wont-be-buying-a-coffee-with-bitcoin-anytime-soon-1498996800 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-you-wont-be-buying-a-coffee... "High fees make it impractical to use bitcoin as a day-to-day currency. Paying a $5 fee to send $10,000 bitcoin isn’t a big deal, but it’s hard to justify buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin if the transaction costs more than the coffee." Realistically, though, from the consumer standpoint Bitcoin is an electronic payments network analogous to credit cards that 1) Takes longer time to confirm (great news when you're standing in a checkout line). 2) Does not have a third party to resolve conflicts and disputes between the consumer and unscrupulous merchant or a straight out scammer. 3) Does not have a rollback mechanism in case of an unauthorized or fraudulent transaction. 4) Does not offer consumer-side rewards - cashback, airline miles, points - for usage. Where do I sign up?
- Cozumel 9y ago
  > "High fees make it impractical to use bitcoin as a day-to-day currency. Paying a $5 fee to send $10,000 bitcoin isn’t a big deal, but it’s hard to justify buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin if the transaction costs more than the coffee." That's what the new Lighting network is for ( https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ )
vilmosi 9y ago
>>> If you have, did you notice that there wasn't a middleman taking a cut when you sent the money? Not an issue for me I'm afraid (UK).

cyphunk 9y ago

heh, anarchist? In the course of perhaps 2 or 3 years Bitcoin has turned more anarchists I know into greedy capitalists than anything else over my entire lifetime. HN is certainly "on board" as ycombinator and affiliates invests in various blockchain retailed companies

ikeboy 9y ago

I've used it and noticed how miners will only include your transaction in a reasonable length of time if you pay a fee, and even that is artificially low due to the subsidy.

cheez 9y ago

Except anyone can figure out where my money comes from and where it goes. No thanks!

cyphunk 9y ago
It still blows my mind that this isn't a bigger issue. Trying to retain any privacy with Bitcoin is an arduous process.
omarchowdhury 9y ago
Okay. So I'm anyone. How am I going to know what your addresses are? Starting from where I am right now all the way over here. You did say anyone.
- cyphunk 9y ago
  the first time you ever pay anyone for anything the probability that this person can determine your entire net worth is much much higher than if you were to use any other means of value exchange (Cash, credit, check, etc).
  - omarchowdhury 9y ago
    You're argument rests on the assumption that people are putting their entire, or close to entire net worth into BTC.
    - cyphunk 9y ago
      I'm playing on the fantasy that Bitcoin or similar could ever be a predominant means of value exchange or storage. It's a fantasy many hold.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

forthefuture 9y ago

The best case scenario for Bitcoin is reaching a consistent price for the rest of its lifetime. That scenario means there's no reason to "invest" in it because ideally it would never change in value. Only people trying to cash out need people buying in. If you were really invested in the long term you'd rather people not buy in so you can buy more at a lower price. Bitcoin also has fees. The only reason the fees are lower than credit cards are because people in China can afford to burn electricity at a loss just to turn their Chinese money into anything else. You still have to pay taxes on the capital gains. And you can't pay taxes in Bitcoin.

tradersam 9y ago
I don't agree. The best case scenario for bitcoin is it becoming the de facto monetary standard, meaning there would be no reason to buy or cash out, as everything would be priced in bitcoin.
- leereeves 9y ago
  And that will never happen for the reason just stated: you can't pay taxes in Bitcoin.
  - aussieguy1234 9y ago
    At the moment. Surely govts will accept cryptocurrency for paying taxes at some point.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rizalp 9y ago
  I don't agree with you Bitcoin will never replace current fiat money as it is inherently flawed: price fluctuate too much, and favor early owner of it.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

grizzles 9y ago

s/Bitcoin/Christianity/g

deweller 9y ago

The tone of this comment is harsh and inflammatory. But I agree with the sentiment. The tech is genuinely interesting and certainly doesn't lack hype. That is usually a formula for positive comments on Hacker News. So I'm genuinely curious why so many users here are against Bitcoin. Is it because they didn't buy in early and want to justify missing the boat? Does it make people feel their own startup is somehow less relevant? Does it threaten the traditional VC funding model?

grizzles 9y ago
I don't like it because it's bad for the environment. Eventually someone like Vanguard will come along and offer a blockchain with real value behind it. After this, all the hype around bitcoin will just look embarrassing in the aftermath. The SEC was useful when information was hard to come by, but now it's just standing in the way of progress.
johnwheeler 9y ago
> Is it because they didn't buy in early and want to justify missing the boat? Not one bit. It's because people are losing their heads over it, it's got classic bubble written all over it, and you've got people who've made money and think they're all the wiser for it. They arrogantly carry a sentiment that detractors are just jealous. Human nature to do that--I get it. There's a saying I heard, something like "Sure, you made a lot of money buying the stocks of tobacco companies. So what? You're still an asshole." In my mind, buying Bitcoin is like shorting the US financial system with the idea that it sucks and should to hell anyway. But, our system with all it's flaws works pretty damn well. It shouldn't be taken for granted and bet against.

parenthephobia 9y ago

How are miners fees practically different from credit card companies' transaction fees?

GhostVII 9y ago

I just don't see what benefits Bitcoin gives to me over a regular bank. First of all because it is decentralised, it is much less scalable than the current system, so I don't think it is going to be able to replace regular banking anytime soon (although I don't know a tonne about the scalability issues). Also I like to have a centralised system, because if my bitcoin gets stolen/I screw up and lose it, it is gone forever. If my money gets stolen somehow, I call up the bank and they reverse the charges. Having a central authority is also pretty nice because they also give me lots of other benefits like credit card rewards, making it really easy to move my money around into different savings accounts or investments, etc. And regular currencies are also backed by the government, so are incredibly stable, unlike Bitcoin which changes values very quickly. Bitcoin is also deflationary, which is a bad trait for a currency to have, as it discourages investment, and encourages people to hoard money instead of spending it. I'm sure there are use cases for Bitcoin, but I don't think it is "some utopian shit", since the current system works super well for most people.

Shorel 9y ago
Current system works well for most people in a handful of well developed countries. Bitcoin is a global phenomenon.
rizalp 9y ago
I'm very much agree to this, especially the deflationary part. Current Bitcoin pricing seems to favor the early `investors`, and fluctuate too much. That is not acceptable for use as money, which must store a stable value for a long time...
- urza 9y ago
  US Dollar lost 95% of it's purchasing power over the last century, so much for "must store a stable value for a long time". The wealth distribution of dollar is based on how many more people your grandfather killed than my grandfather. I don't have any problem with currency where initial distribution rewards people who took investment risks because they saw potential in innovative new technology. And volatility - volatility in bitcoin is actually smaller every year, and this trend will continue. And btw volatility is natural and healthy. It's when something is not moving that you should be worried.

MicroBerto 9y ago

It's because I can't use it to do business with anyone in my market, I can't buy anything I want with it, it's volatile, and it's an absurd waste of energy. Enjoy the run, but sell at the right times because ultimately it will end in some form of tragedy.

srge 9y ago
You can buy everything you want with the US dollar but given the abyssal debt of the US government, one could think it will also end in tragedy.
- rizalp 9y ago
  Only if the US lost its Political Power. Currently the USD still holds its value because OPEC standardize on using it for the Oil Currency (Petrodollar), and early aggressive lending to the third world country with USD. When electric cars become mainstream, I expect there will be a turmoil in the USD

prostoalex 9y ago

> did you notice that there wasn't a middleman taking a cut when you sent the money? I mean, do you have any fucking idea how much money businesses pay to the credit card companies This guy noticed https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-you-wont-be-buying-a-coffee-with-bitcoin-anytime-soon-1498996800 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-you-wont-be-buying-a-coffee... "High fees make it impractical to use bitcoin as a day-to-day currency. Paying a $5 fee to send $10,000 bitcoin isn’t a big deal, but it’s hard to justify buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin if the transaction costs more than the coffee." Realistically, though, from the consumer standpoint Bitcoin is an electronic payments network analogous to credit cards that 1) Takes longer time to confirm (great news when you're standing in a checkout line). 2) Does not have a third party to resolve conflicts and disputes between the consumer and unscrupulous merchant or a straight out scammer. 3) Does not have a rollback mechanism in case of an unauthorized or fraudulent transaction. 4) Does not offer consumer-side rewards - cashback, airline miles, points - for usage. Where do I sign up?

Cozumel 9y ago
> "High fees make it impractical to use bitcoin as a day-to-day currency. Paying a $5 fee to send $10,000 bitcoin isn’t a big deal, but it’s hard to justify buying a cup of coffee with bitcoin if the transaction costs more than the coffee." That's what the new Lighting network is for ( https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ )

vilmosi 9y ago

>>> If you have, did you notice that there wasn't a middleman taking a cut when you sent the money? Not an issue for me I'm afraid (UK).