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Saw this on earlier news reports and am flabbergasted at the police response to this. IMO the nurse was trapped between a rock and a hard place - she had to co

Saw this on earlier news reports and am flabbergasted at the police response to this. IMO the nurse was trapped between a rock and a hard place - she had to comply with hospital policy, as well as HIPAA standards or risk losing her licence and/or her job versus complying with a police command. I'm not a lawyer, so can't comment on whether the request from the police was legally valid or not, but the reaction to grab her and cuff her like that when she was not showing any signs of outward aggression or threats is beyond the pale. I also heard that the officer has not been disciplined or stood down from duty, only been restricted from collecting blood at the hospital in person again, which doesn't go towards solving the power imbalance and ethical problems here.

rayiner 9y ago
The Supreme Court has clearly held that blood draws require a warrant (or consent obviously). Birxhfield v. North Dakota. It’s a 2015 case so the officer was probably just ignorant of it. But the hospital’s official policy should have clued him off. They don’t write those things for funsies.
- wyldfire 9y ago
  I think the legality of his command is independent of his actions taken as a consequence of it not being followed. I realize that this is exceptional but i wish we could ask (instead of "what's legal") -- "what do we expect the function of the police to be?" I'm not criticizing you or HN commenters, Im referring to the community involved. I just can't understand why the police, their unions and their superiors and peers don't ask this.
  - dgzl 9y ago
    I've asked this question myself over the last few years and agree that it really needs to be addressed. I believe the truth is that we've created a new tier of government legal authority. The military has become incredibly powerful, while the requirements and danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed. I have no doubt we have a need for both of these positions, but the idea a lower-level peacekeeper existing and taking some/many responsibilities from a modern and militarized police officer interests me. At the same time, what functions should the police not fulfill that it currently is? Does anyone know about the Stanford prison experiments?
    - mcphage 9y ago
      > danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed The danger of being a police officer are significantly lower than they have been in the past. The 70s was a high water mark, and 2013 was the lowest point in many years.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      The militarized police officer role is not needed. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, mob hits were being carried out in midtown Manhattan at nice restaurants. We didn’t have militarized police back then, we certainly don’t need it now.
    - rendall 9y ago
      "while the requirements and danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed" As mcphage pointed, this is untrue. You are more likely to die on the job collecting garbage or driving for a living. "Police officer" doesn't even break the top 10 most dangerous US jobs. It's about on a par with "groundskeeper".
- jandrese 9y ago
  The hospital administrator told him about the law in the conference call. Also, his stated job is blood collection, that ruling was directly relevant to his work, he should have known it. Also ignorance of the law is no excuse.
  - rendall 9y ago
    "Also ignorance of the law is no excuse." Alas, it is an excuse for a police officer in the US. A cop performing official duties who acts unlawfully, but the law they're violating has not yet been "clearly established" (TBD), is immune from prosecution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity
    - trapperkeeper74 9y ago
      The hospital's legal team would need to determine if her rights were probably violated, in which case there could be valid challenge to qualified immunity. Furthermore, the situation at present is untenable: cops are getting away with violating people's rights and murder, so reversing key decisions is necessary to preserve a civil society or it all comes crashing down when people are tired of jack-booted thugs running amok and throw it all away.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      Whether a right is “clearly established” has nothing to do with the officer’s knowledge, but whether courts have clearly held that the right exists in novel scenarios. The (somewhat misguided, in my opinion) premise is that we don’t want officers philosophizing about abstract legal principles, but rather there has to be appellate or Supreme Court case law they can apply to the situation at hand.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
Well, the latest here is that the police department has placed the cop on leave, the city attorney general is calling for criminal charges, the mayor has called it unacceptable, both the police department and the citizen's review board are investigating the incident. So that seems like serious responses are happening. Justice might, just possibly, be done. I think it's disappointing that all this action happened after the video surfaced, though. For a month after the incident, nothing happened. (Or, perhaps, nothing happened that the public heard about.) Source: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45637083&nid=148&title=sl-police-detective-placed-on-leave-as-video-of-nurse-arrest-spreads https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45637083&nid=148&title=sl-police-de...
pgnas 9y ago
They can bark out all the demands they want, there are laws to protect the innocent. We are heading down a scary road when a cop can run over The law , do whatever he wants without consequence and throw anyone in jail who gets in his way.. if they genuinely did not have the proper paperwork or formalities in order, then this cop should face disciplinary action. Every instance we overlook like this is seen as an agreement, validating bad behavior.
Mithaldu 9y ago
It is important to note that the police officer arrested her because his supervisor ordered him to do so if she refuses. Due to that it is possible that the officer, seeing his job threatened, did not feel he had another choice. Source of this information: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/ http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-af... - "Payne [...] said he was advised by Lt. James Tracy, the watch commander on duty that night, to arrest Wubbels for interfering with a police investigation if she refused to let him get the sample [...]" Pretty sad that the washington post would fail to report such a crucial detail.
- transverse 9y ago
  He was just following orders. Where have I heard that before? His crime is inexcusable.
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    1. False equivalence. He did not kill the nurse. 2. Do you really want this to go ignored and for the instigator of the issue to go free?
    - transverse 9y ago
      1. He harmed her emotionally for life and ruined her spotless record. 2. No, the entire supervisory chain is to be extracted out and punished.
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        > 1. He harmed her emotionally for life and ruined her spotless record. Almost right. Her spotless record is still spotless. As for the emotional harm, he may have had to balance that against the harm done to his family if he were to lose his job. If the USA had a proper and useful social safety net that equation would look different. > 2. Good, then you should at least care about this information being spread.
trapperkeeper74 9y ago
It was absolutely disgusting. They're acting like the local paramilitary mafia, where they can arrest and even kill people without consequences.

rayiner 9y ago

The Supreme Court has clearly held that blood draws require a warrant (or consent obviously). Birxhfield v. North Dakota. It’s a 2015 case so the officer was probably just ignorant of it. But the hospital’s official policy should have clued him off. They don’t write those things for funsies.

wyldfire 9y ago
I think the legality of his command is independent of his actions taken as a consequence of it not being followed. I realize that this is exceptional but i wish we could ask (instead of "what's legal") -- "what do we expect the function of the police to be?" I'm not criticizing you or HN commenters, Im referring to the community involved. I just can't understand why the police, their unions and their superiors and peers don't ask this.
- dgzl 9y ago
  I've asked this question myself over the last few years and agree that it really needs to be addressed. I believe the truth is that we've created a new tier of government legal authority. The military has become incredibly powerful, while the requirements and danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed. I have no doubt we have a need for both of these positions, but the idea a lower-level peacekeeper existing and taking some/many responsibilities from a modern and militarized police officer interests me. At the same time, what functions should the police not fulfill that it currently is? Does anyone know about the Stanford prison experiments?
  - mcphage 9y ago
    > danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed The danger of being a police officer are significantly lower than they have been in the past. The 70s was a high water mark, and 2013 was the lowest point in many years.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The militarized police officer role is not needed. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, mob hits were being carried out in midtown Manhattan at nice restaurants. We didn’t have militarized police back then, we certainly don’t need it now.
  - rendall 9y ago
    "while the requirements and danger of of being an officer have skyrocketed" As mcphage pointed, this is untrue. You are more likely to die on the job collecting garbage or driving for a living. "Police officer" doesn't even break the top 10 most dangerous US jobs. It's about on a par with "groundskeeper".
jandrese 9y ago
The hospital administrator told him about the law in the conference call. Also, his stated job is blood collection, that ruling was directly relevant to his work, he should have known it. Also ignorance of the law is no excuse.
- rendall 9y ago
  "Also ignorance of the law is no excuse." Alas, it is an excuse for a police officer in the US. A cop performing official duties who acts unlawfully, but the law they're violating has not yet been "clearly established" (TBD), is immune from prosecution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity
  - trapperkeeper74 9y ago
    The hospital's legal team would need to determine if her rights were probably violated, in which case there could be valid challenge to qualified immunity. Furthermore, the situation at present is untenable: cops are getting away with violating people's rights and murder, so reversing key decisions is necessary to preserve a civil society or it all comes crashing down when people are tired of jack-booted thugs running amok and throw it all away.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Whether a right is “clearly established” has nothing to do with the officer’s knowledge, but whether courts have clearly held that the right exists in novel scenarios. The (somewhat misguided, in my opinion) premise is that we don’t want officers philosophizing about abstract legal principles, but rather there has to be appellate or Supreme Court case law they can apply to the situation at hand.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

Well, the latest here is that the police department has placed the cop on leave, the city attorney general is calling for criminal charges, the mayor has called it unacceptable, both the police department and the citizen's review board are investigating the incident. So that seems like serious responses are happening. Justice might, just possibly, be done. I think it's disappointing that all this action happened after the video surfaced, though. For a month after the incident, nothing happened. (Or, perhaps, nothing happened that the public heard about.) Source: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45637083&nid=148&title=sl-police-detective-placed-on-leave-as-video-of-nurse-arrest-spreads https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45637083&nid=148&title=sl-police-de...

pgnas 9y ago

They can bark out all the demands they want, there are laws to protect the innocent. We are heading down a scary road when a cop can run over The law , do whatever he wants without consequence and throw anyone in jail who gets in his way.. if they genuinely did not have the proper paperwork or formalities in order, then this cop should face disciplinary action. Every instance we overlook like this is seen as an agreement, validating bad behavior.

Mithaldu 9y ago

It is important to note that the police officer arrested her because his supervisor ordered him to do so if she refuses. Due to that it is possible that the officer, seeing his job threatened, did not feel he had another choice. Source of this information: http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-after-complying-with-hospital-policy-that-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/ http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/31/utah-nurse-arrested-af... - "Payne [...] said he was advised by Lt. James Tracy, the watch commander on duty that night, to arrest Wubbels for interfering with a police investigation if she refused to let him get the sample [...]" Pretty sad that the washington post would fail to report such a crucial detail.

transverse 9y ago
He was just following orders. Where have I heard that before? His crime is inexcusable.
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  1. False equivalence. He did not kill the nurse. 2. Do you really want this to go ignored and for the instigator of the issue to go free?
  - transverse 9y ago
    1. He harmed her emotionally for life and ruined her spotless record. 2. No, the entire supervisory chain is to be extracted out and punished.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      > 1. He harmed her emotionally for life and ruined her spotless record. Almost right. Her spotless record is still spotless. As for the emotional harm, he may have had to balance that against the harm done to his family if he were to lose his job. If the USA had a proper and useful social safety net that equation would look different. > 2. Good, then you should at least care about this information being spread.

trapperkeeper74 9y ago

It was absolutely disgusting. They're acting like the local paramilitary mafia, where they can arrest and even kill people without consequences.