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First I hoped this was a troll (being American). Then I hoped that it was Australian. Then I saw where you compared yourself to Silk Road. Now I just hope you h

by JWLong 9y ago

First I hoped this was a troll (being American). Then I hoped that it was Australian. Then I saw where you compared yourself to Silk Road. Now I just hope you have lawyers. :)

jaggederest 9y ago
I know they don't have lawyers, because lawyers would laugh them out of the building. Let's build a company around criminal conspiracy, there's no way that could go wrong.
- btian 9y ago
  Why is it conspiracy? Not everybody lives in conservative religious countries.
  - the_stc 9y ago
    I expect that the moment we operate in the US (next year), someone will want to press conspiracy charges against us, regardless of where we are or local laws. Plus living in a place where this is fully legal (very few places) is not a viable defense strategy. We must rely on anonymization technology, limited trusted humans (core cell < 5 people), and probably rotate our core team within a year or two. High risk, decent reward, and really making a positive contribution to humanity (sex workers are often victimized -- did you know some places won't even recognize rape against a sex worker?). It might be illegal (hence us operating as an anonymous EJC) but it is very ethical.
    - btian 9y ago
      Why don't you operate in places where it's legal? Like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Netherlands etc.
      - tim333 9y ago
        Semi legal in the UK. They operate as 'escort agencies' where the agency just provides a girl to escort you as it were for a limited fee and then if you want the other services you pay the girl in cash which is legal in the UK. But for the agency to take a money directly for sex services would end up with prison time. the_stc might consider something like that? It reduces the legal risk.
        icebraining 9y ago
        Yeah, but doesn't it increase the risk for the worker, if the client doesn't pay or demands their money back?
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    The long arm of US law is not so easily dissuaded. Violating the laws of other countries is illegal in the US. Even if you've never set foot on US soil or transacted with any US persons or companies, you might still be liable for your actions elsewhere, especially if you're an international company. Maybe money transits through the US, or data, and boom. IANAL but it's not so simple as just drawing a bright line around the US and staying out - though that is a significant first step. They can reach out and touch you for things like... money laundering! Which of course sounds a lot like what the_stc is doing, laundering the profits of illegal (in the US) transactions. It doesn't even need to be illegal where you are, or where the clients are.
IgorPartola 9y ago
The thing is, they are actually identifying a lot of real world problems and there is absolutely a market for what they are doing, both in terms of Johns looking for a sex worker, as well as sex workers looking for marketing, security, and insurance. If sex work was legal in more places, this would be a very viable business, assuming they manage to avoid the pitfalls Uber fell into: sexism and harassment, ignoring labor laws, getting involved in corporate espionage. But in the current legal system, yeah good luck. And good luck raising money.
- JWLong 9y ago
  Yes, they're identifying real world problems, but they're not solving it. You can't simultaneously have anonymity, while providing security for sex workers. These are both stated goals, across their various outlets.
  - the_stc 9y ago
    The anonymity is for our core team, so we can stay operational[1]. But that is very few people. Other contractors are trustless. On-ground people will be rotated often enough (and well paid to compensate for that). Obviously actual workers can't remain anonymous when they meet users :]. But we can screen everyone involved to reduce the risk of LE infiltration. For providers, we will actually take their pictures, check ID, and make sure they actually provide service (just a 2 minute "test"): something an undercover cop will not do. Or maybe I am misunderstanding, how do you feel we are not solving things? 1: https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-anonymity-and-other-techniques-815ee21c6da4 https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-ano...
    - JWLong 9y ago
      1) You seem to have gotten your legal advice from Badger, and not Saul. https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/crime-courts/2017/05/07/bills-to-ban-police-sexual-contact-with-prostitutes-they-investigate-met-with-opposition/ https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/crime-courts/2017/05/07/bill... Forcing the narc to snort coke is not a viable means of weeding them out. 2) In places where it is illegal to buy, you have to provide anonymity for the buyers. Looks like you're already making plans to do just that. Good for you. You're now no longer capable of keeping your contractors safe. --- My advice to you: Commit one crime at a time. Even Uber managed to do that. :P
jackcosgrove 9y ago
They're coming down hard on Backpage - I don't see how this cannot end in tears.
- the_stc 9y ago
  Yes and they will come down on The Erotic Review and others next. (Which is OK, TER is terrible for sex workers and reduces their safety.) As for tear-avoidance: https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-anonymity-and-other-techniques-815ee21c6da4 https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-ano... This isn't our first rodeo.

by JWLong 9y ago

First I hoped this was a troll (being American). Then I hoped that it was Australian. Then I saw where you compared yourself to Silk Road. Now I just hope you have lawyers. :)

jaggederest 9y ago

I know they don't have lawyers, because lawyers would laugh them out of the building. Let's build a company around criminal conspiracy, there's no way that could go wrong.

btian 9y ago
Why is it conspiracy? Not everybody lives in conservative religious countries.
- the_stc 9y ago
  I expect that the moment we operate in the US (next year), someone will want to press conspiracy charges against us, regardless of where we are or local laws. Plus living in a place where this is fully legal (very few places) is not a viable defense strategy. We must rely on anonymization technology, limited trusted humans (core cell < 5 people), and probably rotate our core team within a year or two. High risk, decent reward, and really making a positive contribution to humanity (sex workers are often victimized -- did you know some places won't even recognize rape against a sex worker?). It might be illegal (hence us operating as an anonymous EJC) but it is very ethical.
  - btian 9y ago
    Why don't you operate in places where it's legal? Like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Netherlands etc.
    - tim333 9y ago
      Semi legal in the UK. They operate as 'escort agencies' where the agency just provides a girl to escort you as it were for a limited fee and then if you want the other services you pay the girl in cash which is legal in the UK. But for the agency to take a money directly for sex services would end up with prison time. the_stc might consider something like that? It reduces the legal risk.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Yeah, but doesn't it increase the risk for the worker, if the client doesn't pay or demands their money back?
- jaggederest 9y ago
  The long arm of US law is not so easily dissuaded. Violating the laws of other countries is illegal in the US. Even if you've never set foot on US soil or transacted with any US persons or companies, you might still be liable for your actions elsewhere, especially if you're an international company. Maybe money transits through the US, or data, and boom. IANAL but it's not so simple as just drawing a bright line around the US and staying out - though that is a significant first step. They can reach out and touch you for things like... money laundering! Which of course sounds a lot like what the_stc is doing, laundering the profits of illegal (in the US) transactions. It doesn't even need to be illegal where you are, or where the clients are.

IgorPartola 9y ago

The thing is, they are actually identifying a lot of real world problems and there is absolutely a market for what they are doing, both in terms of Johns looking for a sex worker, as well as sex workers looking for marketing, security, and insurance. If sex work was legal in more places, this would be a very viable business, assuming they manage to avoid the pitfalls Uber fell into: sexism and harassment, ignoring labor laws, getting involved in corporate espionage. But in the current legal system, yeah good luck. And good luck raising money.

JWLong 9y ago
Yes, they're identifying real world problems, but they're not solving it. You can't simultaneously have anonymity, while providing security for sex workers. These are both stated goals, across their various outlets.
- the_stc 9y ago
  The anonymity is for our core team, so we can stay operational[1]. But that is very few people. Other contractors are trustless. On-ground people will be rotated often enough (and well paid to compensate for that). Obviously actual workers can't remain anonymous when they meet users :]. But we can screen everyone involved to reduce the risk of LE infiltration. For providers, we will actually take their pictures, check ID, and make sure they actually provide service (just a 2 minute "test"): something an undercover cop will not do. Or maybe I am misunderstanding, how do you feel we are not solving things? 1: https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-anonymity-and-other-techniques-815ee21c6da4 https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-ano...
  - JWLong 9y ago
    1) You seem to have gotten your legal advice from Badger, and not Saul. https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/crime-courts/2017/05/07/bills-to-ban-police-sexual-contact-with-prostitutes-they-investigate-met-with-opposition/ https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/crime-courts/2017/05/07/bill... Forcing the narc to snort coke is not a viable means of weeding them out. 2) In places where it is illegal to buy, you have to provide anonymity for the buyers. Looks like you're already making plans to do just that. Good for you. You're now no longer capable of keeping your contractors safe. --- My advice to you: Commit one crime at a time. Even Uber managed to do that. :P

jackcosgrove 9y ago

They're coming down hard on Backpage - I don't see how this cannot end in tears.

the_stc 9y ago
Yes and they will come down on The Erotic Review and others next. (Which is OK, TER is terrible for sex workers and reduces their safety.) As for tear-avoidance: https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-anonymity-and-other-techniques-815ee21c6da4 https://medium.com/@PinkApp/pink-app-trading-latency-for-ano... This isn't our first rodeo.