9 ms·

Let's call it what it is: the Internet of Rent-Seeking. As far as I'm concerned, I want my appliances to NOT be networked.

Spivak 9y ago
We should probably split hairs here. I would love for all of my appliances to be networked -- just not on the public internet. - Preheat the oven as I'm driving home - Alert me when my laundry/dishes are done - Alert me if my air filter needs replaced. - Manage my AC/Heating for maximum energy efficiency. - Real time energy usage monitoring. - Turn on/off lights when I arrive/leave.
- jasonlaramburu 9y ago
  Assuming you have a dynamic ip this won't be possible without a cloud service.
  - dasmoth 9y ago
    There's absolutely no reason why everyone who wants one shouldn't have a static block of IP(v6) addresses. If they're hard to get, that's an ISP problem rather than anything else.
    - mjg59 9y ago
      Most mobile providers don't offer IPv6
      - dingo_bat 9y ago
        I think it's the opposite. Mobile operators have higher IPv6 adoption.
  - sannee 9y ago
    We have IPv6, everyone has practically infinite amount of public (and hopefully static, unless ISP did a major fuck up) IP addresses these days.
    - wut42 9y ago
      >ISP did a major fuck up With Orange (French ISP) the IPv6 is dynamic. You have to pay a monthly fee to get a static.
  - mavhc 9y ago
    Easy enough to set up duckdns etc, depends how you define cloud service, does that including renting a VM?
  - xj9 9y ago
    use an overlay network like i2p or cjdns. problem solved
  - geofft 9y ago
    You need one cloud service to tell you what your dynamic IP is, but we've had that service since at least 2001.
  - roywiggins 9y ago
    Apparently Tor hidden services works well for this- there's a mode where the hidden service authenticates clients, so you even get some security for free.
    - adrianN 9y ago
      The Internet of Onion Things: https://github.com/n8fr8/talks/blob/master/onion_things/Internet%20of%20Onion%20Things.pdf https://github.com/n8fr8/talks/blob/master/onion_things/Inte... More resources on the Tor Blog: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/quick-simple-guide-tor-and-internet-things-so-far https://blog.torproject.org/blog/quick-simple-guide-tor-and-...
- FICO 9y ago
  Idk... I wouldn't want to have my oven on when I am not home- it might just be me but it seems dangerous to leave a hot oven unattended. I always check the oven before starting it to make sure it's empty. I guess I am somewhat paranoid that something somehow ended up in there. The rest of the stuff I, personally, don't see any value in other than energy efficiency and that doesn't really require networking. My fridge is constantly telling me that I need a new water and air filters but I just ignore it and assume it's a ploy to sell more filters (like printers that report you need more ink despite printing fine).
  - cr0sh 9y ago
    You might want to double-think that filter thing. Water filters can build up bacteria (listeria is not a fun thing - there are others, too - some pretty bad); this can cause everything from a "funky smell" to "go to emergency room or die". That said, tap water in most municipalities is pretty damn clean, and you can run without a filter; but if you don't want to change the filter, then do just that - remove the filter, so that you don't give the bacteria a nice growth area. If you do change the filter, don't go more than a year between changes at most. Most filters are cheap enough, usually less than $50 USD. As far as the air filter - well, I've never heard of one on a fridge - but if you have one, it's probably to filter the air before it gets to the fan that cools the compressor. If you let it get super dirty, it won't move the air, and your compressor will be overheated/overworked, and it's life will be shortened, or it will fail - or the breaker on the fridge (know where your's is?) will trip. And don't take the filter off and just run filterless - because now the cooling coils will act as the filter, and they are anything but easy to clean (because if you don't, again failures will eventually occur - nbtw, that they sell a special fridge coil cleaning brush that looks like a very narrow bottle brush). If you're talking about other filters in your house (HVAC) - then you want to change those too, fairly regularly. If you don't, again, you'll be overworking your A/C unit, plus the air won't be moved around effectively (making the unit run longer to cool/heat - increasing your bill). Plus, those filters get pretty nasty too - and that stuff doesn't stay on the filter. They make reusable filters - you cut them with scissors to match the filter opening, then when you are ready to clean them, you take them outside and run a water from a sprayer hose "backwards" thru the filter, then let 'em air dry. That can be a cheaper and easier alternative to holding on to a box or two of filters (though such filters are pretty cheap). Finally - note that on many cars (not all!) there is a "cabin air filter". Check your manual on how to replace it; most people don't know about that filter, but it isn't difficult to change out. Costs of course are variable, depending on the car. Again, though, if you don't replace it regularly, your cabin heating/cooling will suffer, air flow will be reduced, the fan motor will have to work harder, etc. Basically - for air filter, check them now and then. When they look like they are getting overly fuzzy, or you can't see thru 'em - change them out.
- gehwartzen 9y ago
  I must be the completely wrong target consumer but I just see so little value in all of this to warent any expense and security risk of the appliances being networked. Oven preheating: takes 15 minutes when I get home barely enough time to prepare whatever I'm putting in there. Loud dry/dishes alerts: I don't see how it's useful. If I'm not home it doesn't matter to me if the laundry or dishes are done or not as I can't do anything about it. Any filter changes: almost all either work on specific timing intervals, so just set 5 years worth of reminders in your phone, or they detect pressure differentials and a service light can just turn on when the machine needs a new filter. Manage AC for max efficiency: nothing a programmable thermostat can't handle unless you have really crazy schedules but even then the savings are minuscule. Turning on/off lights: okey, could be useful.
  - allenz 9y ago
    While each little piece isn't very impressive, taken together I think it makes life significantly more convenient, anticipating your every need. The promise of IoT is that everything "just works", like magic. It's like having a personal butler.
    - adrianN 9y ago
      Currently IoT delivers the experience of having a grumpy butler that regularly tells you to go fuck yourself and sells your personal information to the highest bidder.
      - CaptainZapp 9y ago
        And potentially refuses to open your main door since the union, to which the butler belongs, disbanded on two weeks notice and the butler refuses to work, unless he's unionized.
    - Grustaf 9y ago
      They 'anticipate every need' if all your needs revolve around turning on things according to a schedule, or at most according to where you are physically. For me, turning on lights etc are such a small part of my day, not to mention my 'needs' as to be completely insignificant. If the machines would do something like sort, wash and fold the laundry that would be something, but as it is I people just buy them for novelty value.
- wlievens 9y ago
  Of those, only real time energy usage monitoring is really interesting, I think.
  - linker3000 9y ago
    I bought an 'Owl' energy clamp and display from the discount bin at a local hardware store - about £13 ISTR. I made a copy of the rflink (Arduino-based 433MHz rf sniffer/decoder: https://diyprojects.io/how-build-rflink-433mhz-radio-home-gateway-domoticz/ https://diyprojects.io/how-build-rflink-433mhz-radio-home-ga... - about £20 including ESP8266 wifi link) that decodes the signal from the Owl, my wireless doorbell and that of an outdoor temp/humidity sensor (£6 from Banggood). The board can also send control signals to the rf-enabled mains sockets I have collected over the years (for lights and home appliances). It's all managed by a raspberry Pi (About £20). The system can also pick up my wireless doorbell, and I am about to add temperature sensors and relays (£25) to my central heating system so everything is automated and controllable from Node-Red and a Web interface. Overall, I will have a private home control system for under £100 and I can view and manage it from my laptop or a VPN link from my phone.
    - flyinghamster 9y ago
      For me, the IoT takeaway is, if you want to be able to trust it, you need to do it yourself. Commercial products seem to always want to sell your data to the highest bidder, aside from the potential firmware security problems. At least with the Pi, Arduino, etc., you can control what your Things are doing, and have reasonable assurance they aren't doing things behind your back. I have a Pi graphing outdoor and basement temperature and humidity using rtl433, MRTG, and some scripts, picking up the signals from existing temperature monitors. It's quite a surprise to see how much else is on 433 MHz in my neighborhood, even when using the stubby magnetic mount antenna that came with the RTL-SDR dongle.
tengbretson 9y ago
Perfectly put!

Spivak 9y ago

We should probably split hairs here. I would love for all of my appliances to be networked -- just not on the public internet. - Preheat the oven as I'm driving home - Alert me when my laundry/dishes are done - Alert me if my air filter needs replaced. - Manage my AC/Heating for maximum energy efficiency. - Real time energy usage monitoring. - Turn on/off lights when I arrive/leave.

jasonlaramburu 9y ago
Assuming you have a dynamic ip this won't be possible without a cloud service.
- dasmoth 9y ago
  There's absolutely no reason why everyone who wants one shouldn't have a static block of IP(v6) addresses. If they're hard to get, that's an ISP problem rather than anything else.
  - mjg59 9y ago
    Most mobile providers don't offer IPv6
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      I think it's the opposite. Mobile operators have higher IPv6 adoption.
- sannee 9y ago
  We have IPv6, everyone has practically infinite amount of public (and hopefully static, unless ISP did a major fuck up) IP addresses these days.
  - wut42 9y ago
    >ISP did a major fuck up With Orange (French ISP) the IPv6 is dynamic. You have to pay a monthly fee to get a static.
- mavhc 9y ago
  Easy enough to set up duckdns etc, depends how you define cloud service, does that including renting a VM?
- xj9 9y ago
  use an overlay network like i2p or cjdns. problem solved
- geofft 9y ago
  You need one cloud service to tell you what your dynamic IP is, but we've had that service since at least 2001.
- roywiggins 9y ago
  Apparently Tor hidden services works well for this- there's a mode where the hidden service authenticates clients, so you even get some security for free.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    The Internet of Onion Things: https://github.com/n8fr8/talks/blob/master/onion_things/Internet%20of%20Onion%20Things.pdf https://github.com/n8fr8/talks/blob/master/onion_things/Inte... More resources on the Tor Blog: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/quick-simple-guide-tor-and-internet-things-so-far https://blog.torproject.org/blog/quick-simple-guide-tor-and-...
FICO 9y ago
Idk... I wouldn't want to have my oven on when I am not home- it might just be me but it seems dangerous to leave a hot oven unattended. I always check the oven before starting it to make sure it's empty. I guess I am somewhat paranoid that something somehow ended up in there. The rest of the stuff I, personally, don't see any value in other than energy efficiency and that doesn't really require networking. My fridge is constantly telling me that I need a new water and air filters but I just ignore it and assume it's a ploy to sell more filters (like printers that report you need more ink despite printing fine).
- cr0sh 9y ago
  You might want to double-think that filter thing. Water filters can build up bacteria (listeria is not a fun thing - there are others, too - some pretty bad); this can cause everything from a "funky smell" to "go to emergency room or die". That said, tap water in most municipalities is pretty damn clean, and you can run without a filter; but if you don't want to change the filter, then do just that - remove the filter, so that you don't give the bacteria a nice growth area. If you do change the filter, don't go more than a year between changes at most. Most filters are cheap enough, usually less than $50 USD. As far as the air filter - well, I've never heard of one on a fridge - but if you have one, it's probably to filter the air before it gets to the fan that cools the compressor. If you let it get super dirty, it won't move the air, and your compressor will be overheated/overworked, and it's life will be shortened, or it will fail - or the breaker on the fridge (know where your's is?) will trip. And don't take the filter off and just run filterless - because now the cooling coils will act as the filter, and they are anything but easy to clean (because if you don't, again failures will eventually occur - nbtw, that they sell a special fridge coil cleaning brush that looks like a very narrow bottle brush). If you're talking about other filters in your house (HVAC) - then you want to change those too, fairly regularly. If you don't, again, you'll be overworking your A/C unit, plus the air won't be moved around effectively (making the unit run longer to cool/heat - increasing your bill). Plus, those filters get pretty nasty too - and that stuff doesn't stay on the filter. They make reusable filters - you cut them with scissors to match the filter opening, then when you are ready to clean them, you take them outside and run a water from a sprayer hose "backwards" thru the filter, then let 'em air dry. That can be a cheaper and easier alternative to holding on to a box or two of filters (though such filters are pretty cheap). Finally - note that on many cars (not all!) there is a "cabin air filter". Check your manual on how to replace it; most people don't know about that filter, but it isn't difficult to change out. Costs of course are variable, depending on the car. Again, though, if you don't replace it regularly, your cabin heating/cooling will suffer, air flow will be reduced, the fan motor will have to work harder, etc. Basically - for air filter, check them now and then. When they look like they are getting overly fuzzy, or you can't see thru 'em - change them out.
gehwartzen 9y ago
I must be the completely wrong target consumer but I just see so little value in all of this to warent any expense and security risk of the appliances being networked. Oven preheating: takes 15 minutes when I get home barely enough time to prepare whatever I'm putting in there. Loud dry/dishes alerts: I don't see how it's useful. If I'm not home it doesn't matter to me if the laundry or dishes are done or not as I can't do anything about it. Any filter changes: almost all either work on specific timing intervals, so just set 5 years worth of reminders in your phone, or they detect pressure differentials and a service light can just turn on when the machine needs a new filter. Manage AC for max efficiency: nothing a programmable thermostat can't handle unless you have really crazy schedules but even then the savings are minuscule. Turning on/off lights: okey, could be useful.
- allenz 9y ago
  While each little piece isn't very impressive, taken together I think it makes life significantly more convenient, anticipating your every need. The promise of IoT is that everything "just works", like magic. It's like having a personal butler.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Currently IoT delivers the experience of having a grumpy butler that regularly tells you to go fuck yourself and sells your personal information to the highest bidder.
    - CaptainZapp 9y ago
      And potentially refuses to open your main door since the union, to which the butler belongs, disbanded on two weeks notice and the butler refuses to work, unless he's unionized.
  - Grustaf 9y ago
    They 'anticipate every need' if all your needs revolve around turning on things according to a schedule, or at most according to where you are physically. For me, turning on lights etc are such a small part of my day, not to mention my 'needs' as to be completely insignificant. If the machines would do something like sort, wash and fold the laundry that would be something, but as it is I people just buy them for novelty value.
wlievens 9y ago
Of those, only real time energy usage monitoring is really interesting, I think.
- linker3000 9y ago
  I bought an 'Owl' energy clamp and display from the discount bin at a local hardware store - about £13 ISTR. I made a copy of the rflink (Arduino-based 433MHz rf sniffer/decoder: https://diyprojects.io/how-build-rflink-433mhz-radio-home-gateway-domoticz/ https://diyprojects.io/how-build-rflink-433mhz-radio-home-ga... - about £20 including ESP8266 wifi link) that decodes the signal from the Owl, my wireless doorbell and that of an outdoor temp/humidity sensor (£6 from Banggood). The board can also send control signals to the rf-enabled mains sockets I have collected over the years (for lights and home appliances). It's all managed by a raspberry Pi (About £20). The system can also pick up my wireless doorbell, and I am about to add temperature sensors and relays (£25) to my central heating system so everything is automated and controllable from Node-Red and a Web interface. Overall, I will have a private home control system for under £100 and I can view and manage it from my laptop or a VPN link from my phone.
  - flyinghamster 9y ago
    For me, the IoT takeaway is, if you want to be able to trust it, you need to do it yourself. Commercial products seem to always want to sell your data to the highest bidder, aside from the potential firmware security problems. At least with the Pi, Arduino, etc., you can control what your Things are doing, and have reasonable assurance they aren't doing things behind your back. I have a Pi graphing outdoor and basement temperature and humidity using rtl433, MRTG, and some scripts, picking up the signals from existing temperature monitors. It's quite a surprise to see how much else is on 433 MHz in my neighborhood, even when using the stubby magnetic mount antenna that came with the RTL-SDR dongle.

tengbretson 9y ago

Perfectly put!