5 ms·

HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were- the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoya

by johnfn 9y ago

HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were- the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoyable, and the group that thinks that programming is a means to the end of getting a product to market and nothing more. Whenever a post from one group (such as the article) comes out, a post from the other (such as OP) will quickly appear. And everyone loves it :) For what it's worth, I think that both perspectives are valid. It depends only on your goals.

paulmd 9y ago
Yup, that's the yin and yang of programming. Programming is an art, but real artists ship.
- D_Guidi 9y ago
  Yep, but artists don't ship every single portrait their made. Often, they experiment and they made practice
- greekyogurt21 9y ago
  That's nonsensical, if I produce anything, I'm not a real anything-producer until I ship it? Kafka didn't want his work to be published, and if he didn't he wouldn't have been a real writer?
iamnafets 9y ago
This is mostly off-topic, but being able to identify or root out the value mismatches between people in a discussion (as you've done) seems like an essential ingredient to productive discussion. I've noticed that people who can do this are disproportionately better at achieving their goals than those who can't, especially in engineering organizations. Exceptions of course for zealots and revolutionaries.
- superjisan 9y ago
  Wow! This made me think deep thoughts man.
- rak00n 9y ago
  "Observe, this is the beginning of philosophy, a perception of the disagreement of men with one another, and an inquiry into the cause of disagreement, and a condemnation and distrust of that which only `seems', and a certain investigation of that which `seems' whether it `seems' rightly..." - Epictetus, The Discourses.
- chris_st 9y ago
  Absolutely. This even works at a somewhat lower level... I remember hearing an argument between two cow-orkers, and realizing that each was thinking different (but similar!) things, but assuming the other was thinking the same thing. Angriness ensued...
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    > Angriness ensued... This usually only happens when one begins to make personal insults, i.e. "only a poor programmer would think that!"..
- tenkabuto 9y ago
  This skill is one of the key differences that I've noticed among philosophy students (majors) and everyone else, with their skill being far more developed than others'. I'm not sure if persons with the skill are more disposed towards studying philosophy or the study of philosophy prompts the development and demonstration of that skill more, but hang out with the philosophy kids and you might come to refine this skill by social osmosis.
jeffdavis 9y ago
It's the same group of people, they just may be in different moods at different times.
- abalashov 9y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. I've frequently argued both for the ruthless pragmatism of just-get-it-shipped and for self-indulgent exploration.
zippergz 9y ago
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. At work, my goal is to create products that people use (and pay for). At home, my goal is to learn and have fun. Different approaches for different contexts.
soheil 9y ago
And then there is everyone else in between, including me who both want programming to be fun and enjoyable and on the other hand simultaneously care about getting a product to market.
- howlgram 9y ago
  yeah but those don't make for interesting articles or discussions
danielharrison 9y ago
This is not specific to programming, but personalities in general. There are people who love the journey and others who love the destination. People rarely switch from one to the other. It's part of our core ideals. However, there is a large, vocal, percentage from both these groups that will always voice their opinion against an opposition opinion. It's not a competition and there's no correct answer. It's purely subjective.
- ramshanker 9y ago
  The quote. "We agree to disagree". Or else. War begins!
raldu 9y ago
I think its embedded into the "maker" mindset in general and does not necessarily have to be one way or the other. It's both. A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something. Similarly, a painter would experiment with lots of techniques, colors, textures "on the side," again having lots of personal work lying around, yet would probably treat something s/he would put in an exhibition differently. In the first case, you are experimenting, discovering, breathing; while in the second case you have to think hard about your audience, your readers, or your customers. It's built-in.
- MaysonL 9y ago
  A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something. There are also writers who can do all of these: my personal favourite is Robert Graves (possibly because once many years ago I got him to autograph his Selected Poems and his memoir Goodbye to all That).
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
edwinyzh 9y ago
There are things in-between, too - Enjoy the fun software development process to make an end product successful! And this is exactly my own feeling and goal, though I'm not doing it very well as of now ;)
etherealG 9y ago
The yin and yang. I love it. :)
tomerbd 9y ago
WOW :)
deanCommie 9y ago
The yin and yang becomes more amusing when you think that the site's title suggests an appeal to the first group: the techies for whom this is a passion. Yet it would not exist without the second group because it was started by an investment fund/startup incubator. I agree with you, I love both perspectives and the passions they ignite. I am squarely in the first group, and I love reading about the real life realities of product design/management, pitching, etc.
brianpan 9y ago
There are two groups of people on HN: people that think everything is binary and people that think everything is a continuum. I'm somewhere in the middle.
LrnByTeach 9y ago
Wow!!! this captures the essence of "Two schools of Thought" on Programming, the YIN and the YANG !!!! > HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were- > the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoyable, and > the group that thinks that programming is a means to the end of getting a product to market and nothing more. > For what it's worth, I think that both perspectives are valid. It depends only on your goals.

by johnfn 9y ago

paulmd 9y ago

Yup, that's the yin and yang of programming. Programming is an art, but real artists ship.

D_Guidi 9y ago
Yep, but artists don't ship every single portrait their made. Often, they experiment and they made practice
greekyogurt21 9y ago
That's nonsensical, if I produce anything, I'm not a real anything-producer until I ship it? Kafka didn't want his work to be published, and if he didn't he wouldn't have been a real writer?

iamnafets 9y ago

This is mostly off-topic, but being able to identify or root out the value mismatches between people in a discussion (as you've done) seems like an essential ingredient to productive discussion. I've noticed that people who can do this are disproportionately better at achieving their goals than those who can't, especially in engineering organizations. Exceptions of course for zealots and revolutionaries.

superjisan 9y ago
Wow! This made me think deep thoughts man.
rak00n 9y ago
"Observe, this is the beginning of philosophy, a perception of the disagreement of men with one another, and an inquiry into the cause of disagreement, and a condemnation and distrust of that which only `seems', and a certain investigation of that which `seems' whether it `seems' rightly..." - Epictetus, The Discourses.
chris_st 9y ago
Absolutely. This even works at a somewhat lower level... I remember hearing an argument between two cow-orkers, and realizing that each was thinking different (but similar!) things, but assuming the other was thinking the same thing. Angriness ensued...
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > Angriness ensued... This usually only happens when one begins to make personal insults, i.e. "only a poor programmer would think that!"..
tenkabuto 9y ago
This skill is one of the key differences that I've noticed among philosophy students (majors) and everyone else, with their skill being far more developed than others'. I'm not sure if persons with the skill are more disposed towards studying philosophy or the study of philosophy prompts the development and demonstration of that skill more, but hang out with the philosophy kids and you might come to refine this skill by social osmosis.

jeffdavis 9y ago

It's the same group of people, they just may be in different moods at different times.

abalashov 9y ago
I was going to say the same thing. I've frequently argued both for the ruthless pragmatism of just-get-it-shipped and for self-indulgent exploration.

zippergz 9y ago

I don't think these are mutually exclusive. At work, my goal is to create products that people use (and pay for). At home, my goal is to learn and have fun. Different approaches for different contexts.

soheil 9y ago

And then there is everyone else in between, including me who both want programming to be fun and enjoyable and on the other hand simultaneously care about getting a product to market.

howlgram 9y ago
yeah but those don't make for interesting articles or discussions

danielharrison 9y ago

This is not specific to programming, but personalities in general. There are people who love the journey and others who love the destination. People rarely switch from one to the other. It's part of our core ideals. However, there is a large, vocal, percentage from both these groups that will always voice their opinion against an opposition opinion. It's not a competition and there's no correct answer. It's purely subjective.

ramshanker 9y ago
The quote. "We agree to disagree". Or else. War begins!

raldu 9y ago

I think its embedded into the "maker" mindset in general and does not necessarily have to be one way or the other. It's both. A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something. Similarly, a painter would experiment with lots of techniques, colors, textures "on the side," again having lots of personal work lying around, yet would probably treat something s/he would put in an exhibition differently. In the first case, you are experimenting, discovering, breathing; while in the second case you have to think hard about your audience, your readers, or your customers. It's built-in.

MaysonL 9y ago
A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something. There are also writers who can do all of these: my personal favourite is Robert Graves (possibly because once many years ago I got him to autograph his Selected Poems and his memoir Goodbye to all That).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

edwinyzh 9y ago

There are things in-between, too - Enjoy the fun software development process to make an end product successful! And this is exactly my own feeling and goal, though I'm not doing it very well as of now ;)

etherealG 9y ago

The yin and yang. I love it. :)

tomerbd 9y ago

WOW :)

deanCommie 9y ago

The yin and yang becomes more amusing when you think that the site's title suggests an appeal to the first group: the techies for whom this is a passion. Yet it would not exist without the second group because it was started by an investment fund/startup incubator. I agree with you, I love both perspectives and the passions they ignite. I am squarely in the first group, and I love reading about the real life realities of product design/management, pitching, etc.

brianpan 9y ago

There are two groups of people on HN: people that think everything is binary and people that think everything is a continuum. I'm somewhere in the middle.

LrnByTeach 9y ago

Wow!!! this captures the essence of "Two schools of Thought" on Programming, the YIN and the YANG !!!! > HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were- > the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoyable, and > the group that thinks that programming is a means to the end of getting a product to market and nothing more. > For what it's worth, I think that both perspectives are valid. It depends only on your goals.