6 ms·

The Taxi medallion system is more exploitative of labor than Uber, forcing poor people to prepay for the right to work. It's as close to indentured servitude a

The Taxi medallion system is more exploitative of labor than Uber, forcing poor people to prepay for the right to work. It's as close to indentured servitude as you can get.

enraged_camel 9y ago
Those are two extraordinary claims. Let's see some equally extraordinary evidence.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  It's how the medallion system works, you prepay for the right to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Medallions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Meda...
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    That's true, but that doesn't make it indentured servitude, or even close to it. Medallions exist to keep the supply of taxis limited. It ensures cab drivers have a certain standard of living. They can also be sold, so if the driver is retiring or wants to change to another career, they can do that. It's not a perfect system but it strikes a decent balance between worker protection and limiting externalities (e.g. by making sure not everyone decides to become a cab driver and clog up roads). edit: I guess Uber shills are out in force today.
    - fragmede 9y ago
      > It's not a perfect system I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system". Medallions in NYC had wholly undergone regulatory capture, so while the system may have started with good intentions, it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else.
      - enraged_camel 9y ago
        >>I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system". Medallion system is nothing like slavery. False equivalence. >>it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else. The medallion system benefits citizens because it ensures that taxis don't dominate city streets at the expense of regular car owners.
    - sctb 9y ago
      Could you please stop violating the guidelines, which ask you not to complain about voting or insinuate shillage? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - sjg007 9y ago
    So do strippers? And hairstylists? It's rent?
    - cableshaft 9y ago
      My understanding of those professions (strippers, hairstylists, etc) is they pay the business they work at up front for the night (or maybe week or month) and are expecting to make their money back and then some by the end of that short period of time. Taxi Medallions are different, especially in large cities. They can cost $300,000 to $1,000,000+, upfront. Most taxi cab drivers have to take out a loan or lease the medallions in order to pay for it, and then they're beholden to the loaner for a long, long time. This is why taxi cab drivers HATED when Uber starting taking away their business and didn't just shrug their shoulders, buy a black car, and join Uber. They are pretty much stuck and can't easily get out of it. That's completely different than these other professions where if something isn't working out, you can switch which place you go to or try something else next week or next month.
      - sjg007 9y ago
        Most cab drivers lease the medallion from the medallion holder typically (including the car).. so it's the same. The medallion holder has no incentive to drive if they can rent out the right to drive. That was the game until uber. Uber could and probably will just buy all the medallions. Or if not necessary the medallions will just be effectively worthless.
    - WillPostForFood 9y ago
      I'd put licensing fees for hairstylists in the same category, but it is the large price of medallions (hundreds of thousands to over a million dollars), and the long term commitment that creates that draws the analogy to indentured servitude. Along with the fact that medallions are government mandated and controlled. At least a hairdresser trying to rent a chair might have options to find other places, or even open their own shop.
s17n 9y ago
Definitely true in NYC but Uber is global, in places like France they are lowering the bar for drivers' working conditions.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  Eehh, care to explain ? I just came back from Paris and I used Uber multiple times a day while there, including to go to the airport. It was very convenient. My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there. So, what's the problem ?
  - Kankuro 9y ago
    > My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there If they look unhappy, maybe the customer will give them bad ratings for bad customer experience…
- corford 9y ago
  In Lisbon, Portugal it's like NYC. Any expat or local will tell you that they feel infinitely safer and more comfortable in an Uber than they do in a normal taxi.
evanlivingston 9y ago
That doesn't provide an argument for choosing the lesser of two exploitative systems.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  I don't think Uber is a good company, but I also don't think they are exploiting drivers. Even if you do, it is less exploitative than trapping drivers into a system by forcing them to prepay for the right to drive. Choose whichever you think is less exploitive when you need a ride, but don't pretend taxis are some noble system.
- goialoq 9y ago
  Less exploitative is clearly better. If you don't like Uber, make something better or lobby for Uber to change, but don't wish for things to go back to how they were worse.
rwmj 9y ago
The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity. In the UK you have to also pay fees up front (and pass certain tests) but the fees are relatively modest[1] and the tests include things like knowledge, medical fitness and criminal records, which all seems reasonable. This legally applies to Uber drivers too, although whether it is enforced seems to be in doubt[2]. (I'm not talking about London black cabs which operate on a slightly different system) [1] The fees for my local council are in section 10 here: http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/docs/default-source/licensing-documents/licensing-fees-and-charges-2016-17-(pdf-418kb).pdf?sfvrsn=17 http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/docs/default-source/licensing-docu... [2] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/uber-may-face-21m-minicab-licence-fee-a3518996.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/uber-may-face-21m-...
- dmurray 9y ago
  > The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity The equivalent system existed in Ireland until 2000, with taxi licenses changing hands for over $100,000. I'd be surprised if this doesn't persist in other European countries and cities.
  - Kankuro 9y ago
    In France, licenses have been given for free in limited numbers, and with the right to resell them on the market. So their price have increased up to 200-350k€. So some people made a lot of money there (and they one accept cash, so you know what can happen with the taxes). Recent buyers are in a bad position because they get it for a high price and now risk their value to drop because of the recent competition.
- ralmeida 9y ago
  Not sure how the values for a taxi license compare to a NYC "medallion", but Brazil does have expensive licenses as well. Anecdotally, most taxi drivers I've met rent the vehicle from someone else (don't have hard data on that right now, though).
- zjaffee 9y ago
  The thing that OP is neglecting to mention about the medallion system is that it's purpose was to limit the number of cars on the road at any given time, which eventually turned into a cartel like market because there was a higher demand for medallions than was decided upon for how many taxis should be on the road to reduce congestion and the number of cars within cities. In places with good public transit, this resulted in people using public transit to get home when taxis weren't available, now everyone just takes an uber/lyft. Additionally, this also hurts the speed at which busses can travel. However, now you see places like manhattan have far more cars on the road at any given time than before considering the taxis never left, and the number of cars went up to meet demand.
chx 9y ago
Uber got closer. They give you a subprime mortgage on your car where the payment comes out of your Uber fees and if you are behind, a remote inhibitor does not allow starting the car.
- ralmeida 9y ago
  But then at least you build equity on the car, right? Also, if you already own a suitable vehicle (which is arguably easier than owning a medallion), you wouldn't need the mortgage?
  - chx 9y ago
    The medallion was a safe investment until Uber broke the law and got away with it. It makes no sense to "build equity" in a car since the car is depreciating very fast especially if you use it a lot for example because you are driving it to serve your debt to Uber.
    - ralmeida 9y ago
      It doesn't matter whether the medallion is a safe investment or not. Wikipedia tells me a NYC medallion was worth around 500k in late 2016. Median household income in NYC is around 50k, so that's 10 whole years of gross salary. The truth is that the average person is not able to afford to drive a taxi without renting the medallion. Even building equity on a quickly depreciating asset such as a car used for Uber is better in terms of not having to pay to work. Also, a Uber loan would not be the only way to get a car to drive for Uber. Even if you have no means to finance the car for yourself, many more people own a Uber-suitable car than a taxi medallion, so the price you'd have to pay to work for Uber would in any case be lower. The original discussion was whether Uber or taxis would be more worker-restrictive. I don't think driving a Uber gives total freedom, but I fail to see how driving a taxi is any better for the worker.
bsder 9y ago
The taxi medallion system was put in place precisely to avoid the inherent race to the bottom that is caused by a low barrier to entry (just need a car to be a taxi) and a fixed consumer base (limited number of passengers). That is not fiction or speculation--it is history. You can look up the problems New York had before the taxi medallion system. I am by no means defending the taxi system. It was rife with problems (especially outside the very biggest cities): unreliable pickups, long wait times outside of a very small number of areas, not wanting to take credit cards, bad driving routes to overcharge, and a whole litany of other complaints. The only reason why the whole system hasn't devolved into a free-for-all is that Uber and Lyft have so much VC money subsidizing ride cost that nobody can get under their prices--they are below the bottom. The real competitor to Uber/Lyft is the company who can take the existing cabs and cab companies and insert them into an app that does real-time bidding on their end and works like Uber/Lyft from the consumer end. Austin, TX showed that once Uber and Lyft quit sucking the oxygen out of the space, competition and new options start opening up. However, Uber and Lyft will have to both implode first. And the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  FWIW I tried to use RideAustin when I was there a few months ago and couldn't even get signed in to the app. Ended up using Uber instead.
  - bsder 9y ago
    Well, once Uber and Lyft came back, the alternatives all basically fizzled out. It's kind of hard to compete against VC subsidized rides. The telling thing to me is that Uber and Lyft came back to Austin with no concessions after throwing a hissy fit and leaving. That tells me that they saw something that scared them and they needed to squelch it before it escaped to other cities. Edit: I stand corrected. The state legislature overrode the Austin laws. (Side: Wish I could put an overstrike through my comment.) Make no mistake, this is 1990's Microsoft levels of predatory behavior. It is nothing to be praised.
    - 9y ago
kazinator 9y ago
University degrees are also a system by which, effectively, people (some of whom are poor) prepay for the right to work.
- Waterluvian 9y ago
  You definitely need a medallion if you want to be a taxi driver. But the medallion isn't an indicator that you're an expert professional driver. So it's different than, say, an M.D. or a law degree that are required because those things are difficult and the public needs protection from frauds.
  - 2389232 9y ago
    Good luck with that. 4 out of 5 doctors or lawyers are absolutely worthless.
  - kazinator 9y ago
    Some degrees are "worthless", yet are needed as a document to tick off on a list of job requirements. Of course, the analogy is far from perfect; in fact, I didn't really intend an analogy, as such. A degree obviously isn't a license token you can move from one person to another, like the taxi medallion.

The Taxi medallion system is more exploitative of labor than Uber, forcing poor people to prepay for the right to work. It's as close to indentured servitude as you can get.

enraged_camel 9y ago

Those are two extraordinary claims. Let's see some equally extraordinary evidence.

WillPostForFood 9y ago
It's how the medallion system works, you prepay for the right to work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Medallions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_New_York_City#Meda...
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  That's true, but that doesn't make it indentured servitude, or even close to it. Medallions exist to keep the supply of taxis limited. It ensures cab drivers have a certain standard of living. They can also be sold, so if the driver is retiring or wants to change to another career, they can do that. It's not a perfect system but it strikes a decent balance between worker protection and limiting externalities (e.g. by making sure not everyone decides to become a cab driver and clog up roads). edit: I guess Uber shills are out in force today.
  - fragmede 9y ago
    > It's not a perfect system I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system". Medallions in NYC had wholly undergone regulatory capture, so while the system may have started with good intentions, it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else.
    - enraged_camel 9y ago
      >>I mean, slavery could also be described as "not a perfect system". Medallion system is nothing like slavery. False equivalence. >>it had since been perverted into a self-perpetuating machine that prints money for a couple of lazy fat cats, to the detriment of everyone else. The medallion system benefits citizens because it ensures that taxis don't dominate city streets at the expense of regular car owners.
  - sctb 9y ago
    Could you please stop violating the guidelines, which ask you not to complain about voting or insinuate shillage? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sjg007 9y ago
  So do strippers? And hairstylists? It's rent?
  - cableshaft 9y ago
    My understanding of those professions (strippers, hairstylists, etc) is they pay the business they work at up front for the night (or maybe week or month) and are expecting to make their money back and then some by the end of that short period of time. Taxi Medallions are different, especially in large cities. They can cost $300,000 to $1,000,000+, upfront. Most taxi cab drivers have to take out a loan or lease the medallions in order to pay for it, and then they're beholden to the loaner for a long, long time. This is why taxi cab drivers HATED when Uber starting taking away their business and didn't just shrug their shoulders, buy a black car, and join Uber. They are pretty much stuck and can't easily get out of it. That's completely different than these other professions where if something isn't working out, you can switch which place you go to or try something else next week or next month.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      Most cab drivers lease the medallion from the medallion holder typically (including the car).. so it's the same. The medallion holder has no incentive to drive if they can rent out the right to drive. That was the game until uber. Uber could and probably will just buy all the medallions. Or if not necessary the medallions will just be effectively worthless.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    I'd put licensing fees for hairstylists in the same category, but it is the large price of medallions (hundreds of thousands to over a million dollars), and the long term commitment that creates that draws the analogy to indentured servitude. Along with the fact that medallions are government mandated and controlled. At least a hairdresser trying to rent a chair might have options to find other places, or even open their own shop.

s17n 9y ago

Definitely true in NYC but Uber is global, in places like France they are lowering the bar for drivers' working conditions.

vasilipupkin 9y ago
Eehh, care to explain ? I just came back from Paris and I used Uber multiple times a day while there, including to go to the airport. It was very convenient. My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there. So, what's the problem ?
- Kankuro 9y ago
  > My drivers didn't seem unhappy to be there If they look unhappy, maybe the customer will give them bad ratings for bad customer experience…
corford 9y ago
In Lisbon, Portugal it's like NYC. Any expat or local will tell you that they feel infinitely safer and more comfortable in an Uber than they do in a normal taxi.

evanlivingston 9y ago

That doesn't provide an argument for choosing the lesser of two exploitative systems.

WillPostForFood 9y ago
I don't think Uber is a good company, but I also don't think they are exploiting drivers. Even if you do, it is less exploitative than trapping drivers into a system by forcing them to prepay for the right to drive. Choose whichever you think is less exploitive when you need a ride, but don't pretend taxis are some noble system.
goialoq 9y ago
Less exploitative is clearly better. If you don't like Uber, make something better or lobby for Uber to change, but don't wish for things to go back to how they were worse.

rwmj 9y ago

The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity. In the UK you have to also pay fees up front (and pass certain tests) but the fees are relatively modest[1] and the tests include things like knowledge, medical fitness and criminal records, which all seems reasonable. This legally applies to Uber drivers too, although whether it is enforced seems to be in doubt[2]. (I'm not talking about London black cabs which operate on a slightly different system) [1] The fees for my local council are in section 10 here: http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/docs/default-source/licensing-documents/licensing-fees-and-charges-2016-17-(pdf-418kb).pdf?sfvrsn=17 http://www.dacorum.gov.uk/docs/default-source/licensing-docu... [2] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/uber-may-face-21m-minicab-licence-fee-a3518996.html https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/uber-may-face-21m-...

dmurray 9y ago
> The medallion system seems to be a US peculiarity The equivalent system existed in Ireland until 2000, with taxi licenses changing hands for over $100,000. I'd be surprised if this doesn't persist in other European countries and cities.
- Kankuro 9y ago
  In France, licenses have been given for free in limited numbers, and with the right to resell them on the market. So their price have increased up to 200-350k€. So some people made a lot of money there (and they one accept cash, so you know what can happen with the taxes). Recent buyers are in a bad position because they get it for a high price and now risk their value to drop because of the recent competition.
ralmeida 9y ago
Not sure how the values for a taxi license compare to a NYC "medallion", but Brazil does have expensive licenses as well. Anecdotally, most taxi drivers I've met rent the vehicle from someone else (don't have hard data on that right now, though).
zjaffee 9y ago
The thing that OP is neglecting to mention about the medallion system is that it's purpose was to limit the number of cars on the road at any given time, which eventually turned into a cartel like market because there was a higher demand for medallions than was decided upon for how many taxis should be on the road to reduce congestion and the number of cars within cities. In places with good public transit, this resulted in people using public transit to get home when taxis weren't available, now everyone just takes an uber/lyft. Additionally, this also hurts the speed at which busses can travel. However, now you see places like manhattan have far more cars on the road at any given time than before considering the taxis never left, and the number of cars went up to meet demand.

chx 9y ago

Uber got closer. They give you a subprime mortgage on your car where the payment comes out of your Uber fees and if you are behind, a remote inhibitor does not allow starting the car.

ralmeida 9y ago
But then at least you build equity on the car, right? Also, if you already own a suitable vehicle (which is arguably easier than owning a medallion), you wouldn't need the mortgage?
- chx 9y ago
  The medallion was a safe investment until Uber broke the law and got away with it. It makes no sense to "build equity" in a car since the car is depreciating very fast especially if you use it a lot for example because you are driving it to serve your debt to Uber.
  - ralmeida 9y ago
    It doesn't matter whether the medallion is a safe investment or not. Wikipedia tells me a NYC medallion was worth around 500k in late 2016. Median household income in NYC is around 50k, so that's 10 whole years of gross salary. The truth is that the average person is not able to afford to drive a taxi without renting the medallion. Even building equity on a quickly depreciating asset such as a car used for Uber is better in terms of not having to pay to work. Also, a Uber loan would not be the only way to get a car to drive for Uber. Even if you have no means to finance the car for yourself, many more people own a Uber-suitable car than a taxi medallion, so the price you'd have to pay to work for Uber would in any case be lower. The original discussion was whether Uber or taxis would be more worker-restrictive. I don't think driving a Uber gives total freedom, but I fail to see how driving a taxi is any better for the worker.

bsder 9y ago

The taxi medallion system was put in place precisely to avoid the inherent race to the bottom that is caused by a low barrier to entry (just need a car to be a taxi) and a fixed consumer base (limited number of passengers). That is not fiction or speculation--it is history. You can look up the problems New York had before the taxi medallion system. I am by no means defending the taxi system. It was rife with problems (especially outside the very biggest cities): unreliable pickups, long wait times outside of a very small number of areas, not wanting to take credit cards, bad driving routes to overcharge, and a whole litany of other complaints. The only reason why the whole system hasn't devolved into a free-for-all is that Uber and Lyft have so much VC money subsidizing ride cost that nobody can get under their prices--they are below the bottom. The real competitor to Uber/Lyft is the company who can take the existing cabs and cab companies and insert them into an app that does real-time bidding on their end and works like Uber/Lyft from the consumer end. Austin, TX showed that once Uber and Lyft quit sucking the oxygen out of the space, competition and new options start opening up. However, Uber and Lyft will have to both implode first. And the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.

wlesieutre 9y ago
FWIW I tried to use RideAustin when I was there a few months ago and couldn't even get signed in to the app. Ended up using Uber instead.
- bsder 9y ago
  Well, once Uber and Lyft came back, the alternatives all basically fizzled out. It's kind of hard to compete against VC subsidized rides. The telling thing to me is that Uber and Lyft came back to Austin with no concessions after throwing a hissy fit and leaving. That tells me that they saw something that scared them and they needed to squelch it before it escaped to other cities. Edit: I stand corrected. The state legislature overrode the Austin laws. (Side: Wish I could put an overstrike through my comment.) Make no mistake, this is 1990's Microsoft levels of predatory behavior. It is nothing to be praised.
  - 9y ago

kazinator 9y ago

University degrees are also a system by which, effectively, people (some of whom are poor) prepay for the right to work.

Waterluvian 9y ago
You definitely need a medallion if you want to be a taxi driver. But the medallion isn't an indicator that you're an expert professional driver. So it's different than, say, an M.D. or a law degree that are required because those things are difficult and the public needs protection from frauds.
- 2389232 9y ago
  Good luck with that. 4 out of 5 doctors or lawyers are absolutely worthless.
- kazinator 9y ago
  Some degrees are "worthless", yet are needed as a document to tick off on a list of job requirements. Of course, the analogy is far from perfect; in fact, I didn't really intend an analogy, as such. A degree obviously isn't a license token you can move from one person to another, like the taxi medallion.