7 ms·

There is flood of American outsourcing centers in post-Communist EU countries. Top salaries for software devs/eng, including seniors, are USD 40k gross annually

There is flood of American outsourcing centers in post-Communist EU countries. Top salaries for software devs/eng, including seniors, are USD 40k gross annually. They can treat the employees in the worst "corporate America" ways - their offices, available hardware, policies, laughable benefits, annual leave, create a perfect package for miserable professional and private life.

turk183 9y ago
Thomson Reuters did this using Belarus. Any systems in "maintenance mode" get sent to code monkeys in former Eastern Bloc nations. The quality is fair, but a lot better than what happened with India (sorry, India, I still love some of you guys, but the frustrations have left deep scars, too). It's not like American developers are faring much better in those items you listed--offices have become crap, hardware middling, policiies, Ha! Whatever they can geta away with, typically mental torture. Benefits and time off have been historically good but are dropping, pure misery, you betcha!
- expertentipp 9y ago
  What quality are you expecting?! The salaries aside, the policies (VPN only with permission, only Windows allowed, problems with remote working, getting paid to sit on chair 9-5, some weird virtual machine setups motivated by "security") are killing creativeness in the most talented people.
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    The complaints being so specific, it feels like you're having some discontent with your workplace and feeling that you're trapped there because "there's nothing better out there anyway." Well, don't despair, look around more, you might find that there are places you could actually like. In the conditions you described, it may be worth it to take a small pay cut to get away from a soulcrushing job that makes you question your existence. Money really isn't everything.
    - quuquuquu 9y ago
      I agree with you, but unfortunately not everyone who is qualified can work for a good employer. Why? If x is the number of dev jobs available in the world, and 0.4x is the number of dev jobs that are not laden with bullshit... I'm willing to bet the number of qualified devs looking for work is more like 0.8x, implying 50% will be SOL
watwut 9y ago
Do you have source about post communist programmers being exploited by American companies and presumably unable to change job?
- expertentipp 9y ago
  The other opportunities are not any better. Better opportunities are in more developed EU countries. It's a perfect environment for corporate America to thrive in. You will not find any exploited programmers there because the signs of underperformance are picked up early (mid level management is so efficient!), the employee labeled as "unhappy", and let go. There are only fulfilled and happy people working there.
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    You still didn't provide a source, so you may as well be pulling this out of your ass. Honestly, these are quite extraordinary claims, subpar as Eastern EU social infrastructure might be, I cannot imagine large foreign companies cutting benefits and eschewing work practices that are required by local and EU law. If anything, in my experience multinationals tend to scrupulously follow regulations to the letter, sometimes paralyzingly so.
  - watwut 9y ago
    The super efficient middle management in EU companies is even more extraordinary claim then the exploited poor eastern European programmer.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      Middle management is oftentimes remote, in another EU country with higher salaries and job security (Sweden, Germany, Netherlands). "Efficient" is sarcastic - meaning more "manipulative" and "micromanaging".
      - watwut 9y ago
        Out of curiosity, are you talking about Accenture? Cause they have quite bad reputation around here ...
Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> their offices, available hardware, policies, laughable benefits, annual leave, create a perfect package for miserable professional and private life I am from an Eastern European city with a major outsourced IT industry, and I often associate with these IT workers and I visit their offices for local programming language or Open Street Map meetups. I don’t agree with your comment. Available hardware is fine. Benefits include generous private healthcare in addition to the universal public healthcare, as well as reimbursement for taxis so no one ever has to use public transportation or drive. For lunch, companies order good food from local restaurants. Furthermore, the employees all get the minimum holiday set by European Union and local law, and they do use it; I have never heard of a culture here of not being able to take holiday like in the USA. Yes, salaries are smaller than in the USA, but by local standards they are very generous and people are starting to complain about the IT sector pushing up prices of housing and restaurants beyond what most non-IT workers in this city could pay, just like your San Francisco. I agree that local call centers, another big outsourcing industry, are exploitative. But devs? No. Maybe that is only further away, outside the EU. Within EU countries, if you don’t treat your devs well, they won’t stay; they will leave for Western Europe.
- omegavesko 9y ago
  Absolutely. I also live in an Eastern European country with a large (and growing) IT outsourcing industry, and from my experience here, that statement couldn't be farther from the truth. These companies are some of the best employers in the country, with far above-average benefits, salaries and work conditions. Of course, some are worse than others, but that's true for any industry.
qaq 9y ago
? Total misinformation. As applicable to Ukraine salaries are US salary - US tax -(20-30)% take into account cost of living and special tax treatment (3-4%). Workday is normal workday and not some unknown number of hours offices are way nicer then in US minus the usual suspects (Google FB etc.). You get way more time off plus there are like 3X official holidays in Ukraine. Running recruiting biz. on the side we had real trouble finding people for senior java dev. remote product work 60K/year (tax rate 3%) + all the usual benefits good candidates wanted 70K.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  > As applicable to Ukraine salaries are US salary > remote product work 60K/year 60k USD gross anually in Ukraine? No. Sorry, but it doesn't exist. An unicorn salary, dozen of those lucky perhaps have.
  - qaq 9y ago
    To reiterate we had trouble hiring at that rate good senior Java engineers. Not sure what you are basing your opinion on I lived and worked there for over 10 years including running my own company and working for other companies. I also know good number of founders/owners of the top outsourcing outfits.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      > good senior Java engineers duh! they left for Germany
      - qaq 9y ago
        Some did, but they did not win as far as after tax $, it's mostly for better infrastructure and security. At the time we were trying to fill the positions a large UK based company closed down dev. office in Ukraine they had 120 dev's about 40 were senior scala/java within 1.5 weeks only one was without a new job he didn't take 60K offer either as he got a better competing offer.
- 9y ago
Kurtz79 9y ago
Given that USD 40K is a pretty decent salary in most of Southern and Eastern Europe, as other people have pointed out, US companies tend to be pretty good employers, and why not ? They can pay a fraction of what you would pay US based engineers, have more or less the same quality of work done, and still have happy employees.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  These are salaries much below the market rate. The same companies oftentimes have massive profits in these countries, profits which are tightly funneled out through IE/NL/LU/British overseas regions.
  - Kurtz79 9y ago
    "These are salaries much below the market rate." Are you really comparing US market rate, which even varies inside the US, with that of Eastern Europe ? Or are you saying that USD 40K is much below market rate in Eastern Europe ? In the latter case I'll have to ask for sources, because my experience differs greatly.
    - expertentipp 9y ago
      So Eastern Europe deserves low salaries? Mind you - cars, clothes, petrol, electronics there are more expensive (sic) than in US and cost the same as in more developed EU countries. Social security net and healthcare in Eastern Europe are awfully underfunded and are more comparable to American than to those from more developed EU countries.
      - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
        > Mind you - cars, clothes, petrol, electronics there are more expensive But housing is much cheaper, and that leaves a lot of money left over to buy all those other stuff. In my Eastern European city, I can rent a three-bedroom house with garden for 300€/month. I probably would struggle to do the same with an IT job in Western Europe. Furthermore, it’s strange that you talk about cost of petrol, because IT firms here generally reimburse employees for taxi fares, so that they never have to drive (or use public transportation) unless they live unusually far away. > Social security net and healthcare in Eastern Europe are awfully underfunded Which is why most IT firms here attract employees with nice private healthcare.

turk183 9y ago

Thomson Reuters did this using Belarus. Any systems in "maintenance mode" get sent to code monkeys in former Eastern Bloc nations. The quality is fair, but a lot better than what happened with India (sorry, India, I still love some of you guys, but the frustrations have left deep scars, too). It's not like American developers are faring much better in those items you listed--offices have become crap, hardware middling, policiies, Ha! Whatever they can geta away with, typically mental torture. Benefits and time off have been historically good but are dropping, pure misery, you betcha!

expertentipp 9y ago
What quality are you expecting?! The salaries aside, the policies (VPN only with permission, only Windows allowed, problems with remote working, getting paid to sit on chair 9-5, some weird virtual machine setups motivated by "security") are killing creativeness in the most talented people.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  The complaints being so specific, it feels like you're having some discontent with your workplace and feeling that you're trapped there because "there's nothing better out there anyway." Well, don't despair, look around more, you might find that there are places you could actually like. In the conditions you described, it may be worth it to take a small pay cut to get away from a soulcrushing job that makes you question your existence. Money really isn't everything.
  - quuquuquu 9y ago
    I agree with you, but unfortunately not everyone who is qualified can work for a good employer. Why? If x is the number of dev jobs available in the world, and 0.4x is the number of dev jobs that are not laden with bullshit... I'm willing to bet the number of qualified devs looking for work is more like 0.8x, implying 50% will be SOL

watwut 9y ago

Do you have source about post communist programmers being exploited by American companies and presumably unable to change job?

expertentipp 9y ago
The other opportunities are not any better. Better opportunities are in more developed EU countries. It's a perfect environment for corporate America to thrive in. You will not find any exploited programmers there because the signs of underperformance are picked up early (mid level management is so efficient!), the employee labeled as "unhappy", and let go. There are only fulfilled and happy people working there.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  You still didn't provide a source, so you may as well be pulling this out of your ass. Honestly, these are quite extraordinary claims, subpar as Eastern EU social infrastructure might be, I cannot imagine large foreign companies cutting benefits and eschewing work practices that are required by local and EU law. If anything, in my experience multinationals tend to scrupulously follow regulations to the letter, sometimes paralyzingly so.
- watwut 9y ago
  The super efficient middle management in EU companies is even more extraordinary claim then the exploited poor eastern European programmer.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    Middle management is oftentimes remote, in another EU country with higher salaries and job security (Sweden, Germany, Netherlands). "Efficient" is sarcastic - meaning more "manipulative" and "micromanaging".
    - watwut 9y ago
      Out of curiosity, are you talking about Accenture? Cause they have quite bad reputation around here ...

Mediterraneo10 9y ago

> their offices, available hardware, policies, laughable benefits, annual leave, create a perfect package for miserable professional and private life I am from an Eastern European city with a major outsourced IT industry, and I often associate with these IT workers and I visit their offices for local programming language or Open Street Map meetups. I don’t agree with your comment. Available hardware is fine. Benefits include generous private healthcare in addition to the universal public healthcare, as well as reimbursement for taxis so no one ever has to use public transportation or drive. For lunch, companies order good food from local restaurants. Furthermore, the employees all get the minimum holiday set by European Union and local law, and they do use it; I have never heard of a culture here of not being able to take holiday like in the USA. Yes, salaries are smaller than in the USA, but by local standards they are very generous and people are starting to complain about the IT sector pushing up prices of housing and restaurants beyond what most non-IT workers in this city could pay, just like your San Francisco. I agree that local call centers, another big outsourcing industry, are exploitative. But devs? No. Maybe that is only further away, outside the EU. Within EU countries, if you don’t treat your devs well, they won’t stay; they will leave for Western Europe.

omegavesko 9y ago
Absolutely. I also live in an Eastern European country with a large (and growing) IT outsourcing industry, and from my experience here, that statement couldn't be farther from the truth. These companies are some of the best employers in the country, with far above-average benefits, salaries and work conditions. Of course, some are worse than others, but that's true for any industry.

qaq 9y ago

? Total misinformation. As applicable to Ukraine salaries are US salary - US tax -(20-30)% take into account cost of living and special tax treatment (3-4%). Workday is normal workday and not some unknown number of hours offices are way nicer then in US minus the usual suspects (Google FB etc.). You get way more time off plus there are like 3X official holidays in Ukraine. Running recruiting biz. on the side we had real trouble finding people for senior java dev. remote product work 60K/year (tax rate 3%) + all the usual benefits good candidates wanted 70K.

expertentipp 9y ago
> As applicable to Ukraine salaries are US salary > remote product work 60K/year 60k USD gross anually in Ukraine? No. Sorry, but it doesn't exist. An unicorn salary, dozen of those lucky perhaps have.
- qaq 9y ago
  To reiterate we had trouble hiring at that rate good senior Java engineers. Not sure what you are basing your opinion on I lived and worked there for over 10 years including running my own company and working for other companies. I also know good number of founders/owners of the top outsourcing outfits.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    > good senior Java engineers duh! they left for Germany
    - qaq 9y ago
      Some did, but they did not win as far as after tax $, it's mostly for better infrastructure and security. At the time we were trying to fill the positions a large UK based company closed down dev. office in Ukraine they had 120 dev's about 40 were senior scala/java within 1.5 weeks only one was without a new job he didn't take 60K offer either as he got a better competing offer.
9y ago

Kurtz79 9y ago

Given that USD 40K is a pretty decent salary in most of Southern and Eastern Europe, as other people have pointed out, US companies tend to be pretty good employers, and why not ? They can pay a fraction of what you would pay US based engineers, have more or less the same quality of work done, and still have happy employees.

expertentipp 9y ago
These are salaries much below the market rate. The same companies oftentimes have massive profits in these countries, profits which are tightly funneled out through IE/NL/LU/British overseas regions.
- Kurtz79 9y ago
  "These are salaries much below the market rate." Are you really comparing US market rate, which even varies inside the US, with that of Eastern Europe ? Or are you saying that USD 40K is much below market rate in Eastern Europe ? In the latter case I'll have to ask for sources, because my experience differs greatly.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    So Eastern Europe deserves low salaries? Mind you - cars, clothes, petrol, electronics there are more expensive (sic) than in US and cost the same as in more developed EU countries. Social security net and healthcare in Eastern Europe are awfully underfunded and are more comparable to American than to those from more developed EU countries.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      > Mind you - cars, clothes, petrol, electronics there are more expensive But housing is much cheaper, and that leaves a lot of money left over to buy all those other stuff. In my Eastern European city, I can rent a three-bedroom house with garden for 300€/month. I probably would struggle to do the same with an IT job in Western Europe. Furthermore, it’s strange that you talk about cost of petrol, because IT firms here generally reimburse employees for taxi fares, so that they never have to drive (or use public transportation) unless they live unusually far away. > Social security net and healthcare in Eastern Europe are awfully underfunded Which is why most IT firms here attract employees with nice private healthcare.