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I find it unconscionable that a country with nuclear weapons and a space program still has a caste system, receives foreign aid in the 100s of millions (£) and

I find it unconscionable that a country with nuclear weapons and a space program still has a caste system, receives foreign aid in the 100s of millions (£) and is 93rd on the social progress index (2017). Get it together India!

navinsylvester 9y ago
What is the relevance of this comment to the article?.
- templar_muse 9y ago
  "space program"
  - navinsylvester 9y ago
    I think you belong to the group of people who think India should look into other things first instead of space program. Sigh.
    - templar_muse 9y ago
      And you're suggesting the opposite??
      - robin_reala 9y ago
        It’s OK to look at multiple things at the same time.
      - statictype 9y ago
        Are you suggesting that every country should look into other things before a space program? Or is India somehow special?
        templar_muse 9y ago
        Of course not, any country which is in the green on the World Happiness Report can do what they like - countries in the red however should, perhaps, look to prioritise what they spend their national resources on.
        nkoren 9y ago
        There's a common school of thought which holds that it's immoral to look to space until all problems have been solved on Earth. I despair of reasoning with such people. With attitudes like that, we would never have left the rift valley, the trees, the ocean, or the deep-ocean thermal vents. So, screw that. Life can both evolve and be imperfect. There's no contradiction between having our feet in the gutters and our heads in the stars: we've basically been like that for as long as we've had feet and heads. And if you're bothered by the "feet in the gutters" (as I am), it's historically and philosophically bankrupt to suggest that the way to solve the problem with the gutters is to get our heads out of the stars. That doesn't work. I've lived in India, and having had friends in and around ISRO, have gotten into conversations with low-caste rickshaw-wallahs about the space program. They fucking LOVE it. It is a huge symbol of hope and pride for them -- a reminder that given the opportunity, they are capable of anything. (The designer of India's successful Mars mission was a Dalit). Of course when this anti-space attitude is espoused particularly by white people with respect to brown people, it's not only philosophically bankrupt, but racist. Double plus screw that.
      - negamax 9y ago
        Replying to your bottom comment about green/red. India is a big country and is a republic. I think you are from a small country with homogenous makeup. You can't begin to comprehend India. And seeing it on a chart towards a bottom and having a nuclear + space program must baffle you I am asked questions upfront about rape culture. Nevermind the fact that these stories being in news and media emphasis that they are not the norm. Also, I squarely understand that poor people in western countries hate India. They take solace in knowing that some people in the world are worse off then them. Successful Chinese are labelled as syndicates. Singapore means chewing gums not allowed.
        qazpot 9y ago
        > Nevermind the fact that these stories being in news and media emphasis that they are not the norm. I would say that India does have a rape culture, especially in North India. Except for a few small affluent areas in Delhi and Gurugram, women can't venture out safely.
        negamax 9y ago
        North India is a big place. It's easy to lump people together. For e.g. state of Punjab, HP (Himalayas) are in North. Virtually crime free. Fairly good living standard
    - jlebrech 9y ago
      the US space program helped plenty get out of poverty, it was good for business and technology. giving the money directly to the poor is like giving a starving person a fish, having a space agency is teaching your people to make tofu.
- statictype 9y ago
  There's a special version of Godwin's law. Any internet discussion involving India mustn't fail to mention the caste system
  - navinsylvester 9y ago
    Yes. Next question would be - shouldn't India tackle poverty instead of space program first.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      The standard response to that should be "shouldn't the US?".
    - wongarsu 9y ago
      Promoting science and engineering while creating jobs in both fields is one way to tackle poverty. And a space program is doing just that. It's probably not the single most effective measure against poverty, but it doesn't seem like the worst thing to do either.
Normal_gaussian 9y ago
India has an insane population - 1.3bn - and some of the most complicated geo-politics on its doorstep. China, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan. The cultural progress in India is very complex, it is nothing like the newly built USA - its histories and personal cultures are old and deeply entrenched - and it is nothing like the Europe that, in many ways, fucked it up with Empire. But we are seeing progress. It is interesting to find that India is largely western sympathetic, and it is highly beneficial to westerners that it is. We put the geo-politics in western favour by ensuring they have nuclear weapons and advanced science programs, and we try and strengthen the nation and resolve the societal issues with aid money. I'm not saying India doesn't have massive corruption, and I'm not saying the aid and incentives are definitely applied in the right way, but I am saying that calling out aid as incompatible with nukes and spaceflight highlights an ignorance of what goes on in India and the surrounding nations - and its impact on the west.
- cat199 9y ago
  > it is nothing like the Europe that, in many ways, fucked it up with Empire. one could argue that the entire basis for 'european culture' is empire; for better or worse - and as a simple observation.
hummerbliss 9y ago
A society should progress and then its shortcomings have a way of solving themselves. Not a zerosum game.
rsynnott 9y ago
The US doesn't have a proper healthcare system, what's it doing with a space program? The EU has a still-simmering financial crisis; what's it doing with a space program? Japan has a looming demographic crisis, what's it doing with a space program? I mean, you could say this about literally anywhere. No space programs allowed until everything is perfect!
ganeshkrishnan 9y ago
>receives foreign aid in the 100s of millions (£) I could debate you on everything but I will take you up on this. India has repeatedly requested UK not to donate any money for the last few years http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844... Most of the Western money anyway goes into "Christian Missionaries" in remote tribal areas. India also donates more money than it receives. http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-power-india-gives-more-aid-than-it-receives-1584604.html http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-...
dang 9y ago
National flamewar is not welcome on HN. We've banned this account. Posting like this will get your main account banned too, so please don't do it again.

navinsylvester 9y ago

What is the relevance of this comment to the article?.

templar_muse 9y ago
"space program"
- navinsylvester 9y ago
  I think you belong to the group of people who think India should look into other things first instead of space program. Sigh.
  - templar_muse 9y ago
    And you're suggesting the opposite??
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      It’s OK to look at multiple things at the same time.
    - statictype 9y ago
      Are you suggesting that every country should look into other things before a space program? Or is India somehow special?
      - templar_muse 9y ago
        Of course not, any country which is in the green on the World Happiness Report can do what they like - countries in the red however should, perhaps, look to prioritise what they spend their national resources on.
      - nkoren 9y ago
        There's a common school of thought which holds that it's immoral to look to space until all problems have been solved on Earth. I despair of reasoning with such people. With attitudes like that, we would never have left the rift valley, the trees, the ocean, or the deep-ocean thermal vents. So, screw that. Life can both evolve and be imperfect. There's no contradiction between having our feet in the gutters and our heads in the stars: we've basically been like that for as long as we've had feet and heads. And if you're bothered by the "feet in the gutters" (as I am), it's historically and philosophically bankrupt to suggest that the way to solve the problem with the gutters is to get our heads out of the stars. That doesn't work. I've lived in India, and having had friends in and around ISRO, have gotten into conversations with low-caste rickshaw-wallahs about the space program. They fucking LOVE it. It is a huge symbol of hope and pride for them -- a reminder that given the opportunity, they are capable of anything. (The designer of India's successful Mars mission was a Dalit). Of course when this anti-space attitude is espoused particularly by white people with respect to brown people, it's not only philosophically bankrupt, but racist. Double plus screw that.
    - negamax 9y ago
      Replying to your bottom comment about green/red. India is a big country and is a republic. I think you are from a small country with homogenous makeup. You can't begin to comprehend India. And seeing it on a chart towards a bottom and having a nuclear + space program must baffle you I am asked questions upfront about rape culture. Nevermind the fact that these stories being in news and media emphasis that they are not the norm. Also, I squarely understand that poor people in western countries hate India. They take solace in knowing that some people in the world are worse off then them. Successful Chinese are labelled as syndicates. Singapore means chewing gums not allowed.
      - qazpot 9y ago
        > Nevermind the fact that these stories being in news and media emphasis that they are not the norm. I would say that India does have a rape culture, especially in North India. Except for a few small affluent areas in Delhi and Gurugram, women can't venture out safely.
        negamax 9y ago
        North India is a big place. It's easy to lump people together. For e.g. state of Punjab, HP (Himalayas) are in North. Virtually crime free. Fairly good living standard
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    the US space program helped plenty get out of poverty, it was good for business and technology. giving the money directly to the poor is like giving a starving person a fish, having a space agency is teaching your people to make tofu.
statictype 9y ago
There's a special version of Godwin's law. Any internet discussion involving India mustn't fail to mention the caste system
- navinsylvester 9y ago
  Yes. Next question would be - shouldn't India tackle poverty instead of space program first.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    The standard response to that should be "shouldn't the US?".
  - wongarsu 9y ago
    Promoting science and engineering while creating jobs in both fields is one way to tackle poverty. And a space program is doing just that. It's probably not the single most effective measure against poverty, but it doesn't seem like the worst thing to do either.

Normal_gaussian 9y ago

India has an insane population - 1.3bn - and some of the most complicated geo-politics on its doorstep. China, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan. The cultural progress in India is very complex, it is nothing like the newly built USA - its histories and personal cultures are old and deeply entrenched - and it is nothing like the Europe that, in many ways, fucked it up with Empire. But we are seeing progress. It is interesting to find that India is largely western sympathetic, and it is highly beneficial to westerners that it is. We put the geo-politics in western favour by ensuring they have nuclear weapons and advanced science programs, and we try and strengthen the nation and resolve the societal issues with aid money. I'm not saying India doesn't have massive corruption, and I'm not saying the aid and incentives are definitely applied in the right way, but I am saying that calling out aid as incompatible with nukes and spaceflight highlights an ignorance of what goes on in India and the surrounding nations - and its impact on the west.

cat199 9y ago
> it is nothing like the Europe that, in many ways, fucked it up with Empire. one could argue that the entire basis for 'european culture' is empire; for better or worse - and as a simple observation.

hummerbliss 9y ago

A society should progress and then its shortcomings have a way of solving themselves. Not a zerosum game.

rsynnott 9y ago

The US doesn't have a proper healthcare system, what's it doing with a space program? The EU has a still-simmering financial crisis; what's it doing with a space program? Japan has a looming demographic crisis, what's it doing with a space program? I mean, you could say this about literally anywhere. No space programs allowed until everything is perfect!

ganeshkrishnan 9y ago

>receives foreign aid in the 100s of millions (£) I could debate you on everything but I will take you up on this. India has repeatedly requested UK not to donate any money for the last few years http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844... Most of the Western money anyway goes into "Christian Missionaries" in remote tribal areas. India also donates more money than it receives. http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-power-india-gives-more-aid-than-it-receives-1584604.html http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-...

dang 9y ago

National flamewar is not welcome on HN. We've banned this account. Posting like this will get your main account banned too, so please don't do it again.