6 ms·

New California plan would split state in three

32 points by mbgaxyz 9y ago

frigen 9y ago
There's really no limit to VCs.
gnicholas 9y ago
Los Angeles and Orange County end up in different states? That's an odd place to draw the line. Also weird that progressive SF ends up with the more conservative far-north counties.
- azinman2 9y ago
  Or that San Diego gets roped in with all the farming communities. Id say Orange County is more like San Diego than it is like LA. Clearly no matter how you draw these lines people’s commutes will be crossing states (which also happens elsewhere, for example NH and MA).
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    Perhaps OC is more like SD than LA, but LA is more like OC than LA is like SLO — and by a wide margin. What's wrong with just a simple north/south division? Not that this is better than the current situation, but it makes more sense to me than this tripartite split.
  - ng12 9y ago
    > Id say Orange County is more like San Diego than it is like LA. Why? I've driven through the area a dozen times. It's all the same sprawl. The nice parts of OC don't seem that much different than say Pasadena.
  - toast0 9y ago
    Depending on what part of orange county you identify with... I feel like north Orange County, eg Anaheim, Huntington Beach, Buena Park, etc, would go well with Los Angeles, and South Orange County, eg Irvine, Laguna *, San Juan Capistrano, etc would go well with San Diego. For ease of division, let 714 go with LA and 949 go with San Diego.
- jayd16 9y ago
  The scheme seems to be to scrape out two GOP senators in the south, quarantine Los Angeles and the south west coast just short of SF, and keep that lucrative part of the state with the conservative north.
tdeck 9y ago
I thought "calexit" meant California leaving the USA. This is a similar but different bad idea.
tristanj 9y ago
The biggest political consequence of this plan is that it would add 4 additional democratic senate seats. For this reason, I can't see this plan proceeding though congress.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Won't the green area go GOP?
  - thomas_howland 9y ago
    Temporarily at best. They have been active targets for Dem takeover for decades and absent massive population shifts the demographics will fairly shortly ensure that occurs.
  - tristanj 9y ago
    I think it's close, but San Diego should be enough to tip it blue. Here's how the counties voted in 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_California,_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_... Edit: I was curious so I ran the math. It's super close, but republicans barely win. In 2012, Republicans scored 1,786,934 votes in green counties. Democrats scored 1,774,135 votes. That places republicans winning by 12,799 votes or with 50.18% of the vote. That makes the new "Southern California" a swing state.
- an_account 9y ago
  Actually I think it would add 2 democratic and 2 republican seats. The proposed “Southern California” has large amount of conservative voters and I think the GOP would be able to scrape out wins there. Both OC and SD are relatively conservative for populated areas in CA. But I agree with you that this plan has no chance.
raymondh 9y ago
The last time this idea was proposed, Jay Leno joked that the three new states would be called, "log, fog, and smog".
- jayd16 9y ago
  Doesn't work with this proposal though. More like log and fog, surf and smog, and ..uhh...gerry and mander?
jayd16 9y ago
>His newest measure, filed Friday, says the “political representation of California’s diverse population and economies has rendered the state nearly ungovernable.” Do people really think this? Seems like California is in pretty good shape to me.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  It used to be somewhat ungovernable when there were >1/3 Republicans in the legislature, since Prop 13 imposes severe constraints on the ability of any governments in the state to raise taxes for any reason, and the CA state GOP made it their mission to be as obstructionist as possible (my former state rep sent out mailers proudly proclaiming that he had something like a 95% record of voting No on every motion that came to the floor, interspersed with various racist stereotypes). Didn’t help that we had a string of bad and ineffective (for various reasons) governors in Pete Wilson, Gray Davis, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Since the Democrats achieved a supermajority in both chambers, and with the seasoned and very effective Jerry Brown as governor, everything has been comparatively smooth.
  - dbcurtis 9y ago
    Smooth as long as you are an ubanite. There are large swathes of California that are tired of being ignored and having their concerns invalidated. There is only so long people can be told that they are too insignificant to matter before it all blows up. I have been a Sili Valley engineer for years. But I grew up in rural America. I can speak both languages. The half of the USA that voted Trump is simply tired of the abuse, disdain, intolerance, and complete disregard for their interests. They are no less human than you. I suspect you are surprised at my reaction. Think about what that means. Ignoring the seething anger of those who don't think things are going well now that there is a supermajority in both houses is not going to end well.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - jayd16 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dbcurtis 9y ago
The map is designed to make sure all three states end up disenfranchising rural and agricultural interests. I look at that map and see disdain and hate.
- gnaritas 9y ago
  You mean it favors people over land, good.
  - dbcurtis 9y ago
    No. I mean it favors people you like over people you don't give a rat's arse about. THAT is the problem.
    - landryraccoon 9y ago
      I think every human being should be given equal weight. Do you disagree? If so, what is your standard for deciding that one person should be given more of a voice than another?
      - DashRattlesnake 9y ago
        > I think every human being should be given equal weight. Do you disagree? If so, what is your standard for deciding that one person should be given more of a voice than another? Tyranny of the majority can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. That's one of them.
        landryraccoon 9y ago
        That doesn't really answer the question though. Tyranny of the majority is when the rights of the minority are trampled on by the majority. What rights are being trampled on here? I hear lots of buzzwords being thrown around like "hate" and "tyranny". Is it just that you are a member of a privileged minority (members of rural areas or lower population states) that have institutionalized greater representation, and you wish to protect that privilege, or what?
swang 9y ago
well if they won't go for 6 separate californias.... let's try 3! also, southern california (green) isn't even south of california (purple)... okay that's not the ridiculous part. the ridiculous part is the comment section thinking this is some liberal conspiracy. apparently they equate silicon valley as full of liberals... which i guess it is, but it's also full of non-liberals... you know the billionaires that can actually fund dumb stuff like this over and over again.
surfmike 9y ago
It's not clear how this would solve any governance issues. The new states still mix coastal cities within inland/central valley counties, so you keep the urban/rural tension. Regional governments around cities would do more help governance. A big problem of the Bay Area is that political power is devolved too much to cities, which paralyzes any regional efforts on infrastructure, housing, crime, redevelopment. It would make more sense to create intermediate governments with power over metro areas. E.g. separate regional governments for the Bay Area, LA, Orange County, San Diego, Sacramento, and then larger ones for the central valley and Northern California.
- akira2501 9y ago
  > It would make more sense to create intermediate governments with power over metro areas. That's basically a county. Perhaps we just need to reconsider those boundaries? > Sacramento As a native, it's not as homogeneous as anyone would presume; and I feel the surrounding counties and structure do more or less reasonably represent the geographical and societal divisions that are present in Sacramento and the surrounding areas. I'm not sure any of our neighbors would appreciate being lumped out of California and in with us.
  - pedrosorio 9y ago
    > That's basically a county. Perhaps we just need to reconsider those boundaries? There are 9 counties in the Bay Area.
    - sapienthomo 9y ago
      Those are very broad boundaries, though. It's not clear that people from Gilroy, Rio Vista, and Geyserville all share common interests in Bay Area governance.
  - surfmike 9y ago
    Counties don't have nearly enough power to drive changes, and there are also too many of them in the Bay Area as well.
dchasson 9y ago
Humor follows: Strange to say a plan would split California into 3 and solve the human linked tickets. Especially, when considering over 100 years of Americans alone splitting California into pieces (without github issues). I would prefer to see the surprises of a California United with the States, than any more division of human linked tickets. I hypothesize that humans in California are responsible for the majority of outstanding open issues in open source software, and as an Oregonian, I insist that California start closing TODOS before it starts forking itself.

32 points by mbgaxyz 9y ago

There's really no limit to VCs.

Los Angeles and Orange County end up in different states? That's an odd place to draw the line. Also weird that progressive SF ends up with the more conservative far-north counties.

azinman2 9y ago
Or that San Diego gets roped in with all the farming communities. Id say Orange County is more like San Diego than it is like LA. Clearly no matter how you draw these lines people’s commutes will be crossing states (which also happens elsewhere, for example NH and MA).
- gnicholas 9y ago
  Perhaps OC is more like SD than LA, but LA is more like OC than LA is like SLO — and by a wide margin. What's wrong with just a simple north/south division? Not that this is better than the current situation, but it makes more sense to me than this tripartite split.
- ng12 9y ago
  > Id say Orange County is more like San Diego than it is like LA. Why? I've driven through the area a dozen times. It's all the same sprawl. The nice parts of OC don't seem that much different than say Pasadena.
- toast0 9y ago
  Depending on what part of orange county you identify with... I feel like north Orange County, eg Anaheim, Huntington Beach, Buena Park, etc, would go well with Los Angeles, and South Orange County, eg Irvine, Laguna *, San Juan Capistrano, etc would go well with San Diego. For ease of division, let 714 go with LA and 949 go with San Diego.
jayd16 9y ago
The scheme seems to be to scrape out two GOP senators in the south, quarantine Los Angeles and the south west coast just short of SF, and keep that lucrative part of the state with the conservative north.

tdeck 9y ago

I thought "calexit" meant California leaving the USA. This is a similar but different bad idea.

tristanj 9y ago

The biggest political consequence of this plan is that it would add 4 additional democratic senate seats. For this reason, I can't see this plan proceeding though congress.

hkmurakami 9y ago
Won't the green area go GOP?
- thomas_howland 9y ago
  Temporarily at best. They have been active targets for Dem takeover for decades and absent massive population shifts the demographics will fairly shortly ensure that occurs.
- tristanj 9y ago
  I think it's close, but San Diego should be enough to tip it blue. Here's how the counties voted in 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_California,_2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_... Edit: I was curious so I ran the math. It's super close, but republicans barely win. In 2012, Republicans scored 1,786,934 votes in green counties. Democrats scored 1,774,135 votes. That places republicans winning by 12,799 votes or with 50.18% of the vote. That makes the new "Southern California" a swing state.
an_account 9y ago
Actually I think it would add 2 democratic and 2 republican seats. The proposed “Southern California” has large amount of conservative voters and I think the GOP would be able to scrape out wins there. Both OC and SD are relatively conservative for populated areas in CA. But I agree with you that this plan has no chance.

raymondh 9y ago

The last time this idea was proposed, Jay Leno joked that the three new states would be called, "log, fog, and smog".

jayd16 9y ago
Doesn't work with this proposal though. More like log and fog, surf and smog, and ..uhh...gerry and mander?

jayd16 9y ago

>His newest measure, filed Friday, says the “political representation of California’s diverse population and economies has rendered the state nearly ungovernable.” Do people really think this? Seems like California is in pretty good shape to me.

jacobolus 9y ago
It used to be somewhat ungovernable when there were >1/3 Republicans in the legislature, since Prop 13 imposes severe constraints on the ability of any governments in the state to raise taxes for any reason, and the CA state GOP made it their mission to be as obstructionist as possible (my former state rep sent out mailers proudly proclaiming that he had something like a 95% record of voting No on every motion that came to the floor, interspersed with various racist stereotypes). Didn’t help that we had a string of bad and ineffective (for various reasons) governors in Pete Wilson, Gray Davis, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. Since the Democrats achieved a supermajority in both chambers, and with the seasoned and very effective Jerry Brown as governor, everything has been comparatively smooth.
- dbcurtis 9y ago
  Smooth as long as you are an ubanite. There are large swathes of California that are tired of being ignored and having their concerns invalidated. There is only so long people can be told that they are too insignificant to matter before it all blows up. I have been a Sili Valley engineer for years. But I grew up in rural America. I can speak both languages. The half of the USA that voted Trump is simply tired of the abuse, disdain, intolerance, and complete disregard for their interests. They are no less human than you. I suspect you are surprised at my reaction. Think about what that means. Ignoring the seething anger of those who don't think things are going well now that there is a supermajority in both houses is not going to end well.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jayd16 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dbcurtis 9y ago

The map is designed to make sure all three states end up disenfranchising rural and agricultural interests. I look at that map and see disdain and hate.

gnaritas 9y ago
You mean it favors people over land, good.
- dbcurtis 9y ago
  No. I mean it favors people you like over people you don't give a rat's arse about. THAT is the problem.
  - landryraccoon 9y ago
    I think every human being should be given equal weight. Do you disagree? If so, what is your standard for deciding that one person should be given more of a voice than another?
    - DashRattlesnake 9y ago
      > I think every human being should be given equal weight. Do you disagree? If so, what is your standard for deciding that one person should be given more of a voice than another? Tyranny of the majority can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. That's one of them.
      - landryraccoon 9y ago
        That doesn't really answer the question though. Tyranny of the majority is when the rights of the minority are trampled on by the majority. What rights are being trampled on here? I hear lots of buzzwords being thrown around like "hate" and "tyranny". Is it just that you are a member of a privileged minority (members of rural areas or lower population states) that have institutionalized greater representation, and you wish to protect that privilege, or what?

swang 9y ago

well if they won't go for 6 separate californias.... let's try 3! also, southern california (green) isn't even south of california (purple)... okay that's not the ridiculous part. the ridiculous part is the comment section thinking this is some liberal conspiracy. apparently they equate silicon valley as full of liberals... which i guess it is, but it's also full of non-liberals... you know the billionaires that can actually fund dumb stuff like this over and over again.

surfmike 9y ago

It's not clear how this would solve any governance issues. The new states still mix coastal cities within inland/central valley counties, so you keep the urban/rural tension. Regional governments around cities would do more help governance. A big problem of the Bay Area is that political power is devolved too much to cities, which paralyzes any regional efforts on infrastructure, housing, crime, redevelopment. It would make more sense to create intermediate governments with power over metro areas. E.g. separate regional governments for the Bay Area, LA, Orange County, San Diego, Sacramento, and then larger ones for the central valley and Northern California.

akira2501 9y ago
> It would make more sense to create intermediate governments with power over metro areas. That's basically a county. Perhaps we just need to reconsider those boundaries? > Sacramento As a native, it's not as homogeneous as anyone would presume; and I feel the surrounding counties and structure do more or less reasonably represent the geographical and societal divisions that are present in Sacramento and the surrounding areas. I'm not sure any of our neighbors would appreciate being lumped out of California and in with us.
- pedrosorio 9y ago
  > That's basically a county. Perhaps we just need to reconsider those boundaries? There are 9 counties in the Bay Area.
  - sapienthomo 9y ago
    Those are very broad boundaries, though. It's not clear that people from Gilroy, Rio Vista, and Geyserville all share common interests in Bay Area governance.
- surfmike 9y ago
  Counties don't have nearly enough power to drive changes, and there are also too many of them in the Bay Area as well.

dchasson 9y ago

Humor follows: Strange to say a plan would split California into 3 and solve the human linked tickets. Especially, when considering over 100 years of Americans alone splitting California into pieces (without github issues). I would prefer to see the surprises of a California United with the States, than any more division of human linked tickets. I hypothesize that humans in California are responsible for the majority of outstanding open issues in open source software, and as an Oregonian, I insist that California start closing TODOS before it starts forking itself.