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>Personally I think Kaczynski was influenced more by his inability to get a date in his entire life. You should read his manifesto, the dude had some funky ide

by tray5 9y ago

>Personally I think Kaczynski was influenced more by his inability to get a date in his entire life. You should read his manifesto, the dude had some funky ideas about society and there's no excuse for murdering innocent poeple, but he does defend what he believes in very vigorously. He wasn't a man without an ideological backing.

pvg 9y ago
That's pretty much "Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos." Lots of mentally ill people defend what they believe in very vigorously.
- ramphastidae 9y ago
  What's wrong with socialism?
- tray5 9y ago
  Not what I'm saying, I'm saying it is well thought out and has reasoned arguments. Not just that he believes in it a lot.
  - pvg 9y ago
    Really? You're one of few people who think that. The 'manifesto' hits the crazy right off the bat and sticks to it for 35k words. "One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism [...] When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, “politically correct” types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like [...] Thus, what we mean by “leftism” will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology. (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.) [...] By “feelings of inferiority” we mean not only inferiority feelings in the strict sense but a whole spectrum of related traits; low self-esteem, feelings of powerlessness, depressive tendencies, defeatism, guilt, self- hatred, etc. We argue that modern leftists tend to have some such feelings (possibly more or less repressed) and that these feelings are decisive in determining the direction of modern leftism." You can get stuff of this quality by the shovelful from your typical bad subreddit, although usually not by one person all at once.
    - titzer 9y ago
      > We argue that modern leftists tend to have some such feelings (possibly more or less repressed) and that these feelings are decisive in determining the direction of modern leftism. So he made a (controversial) argument about leftists which actually fits in with his broader point that humans these days are not able to self actualize and therefore suffer from repressed feelings. IMO the statement he made is significantly less crazy than Freud's "scientific" theory of penis envy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy#Freud.27s_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy#Freud.27s_theory), which was treated as an actual theory by the scientific community for _decades_. It's a bit polemic about leftists in that regard, but do you think the overall point is invalid? If so, maybe argue why instead of just calling him crazy.
      - pvg 9y ago
        I think you are conflating 'has some sort of internal logic' with 'sane'. Of course you can dig around the thing and find some idea that appeals or convince yourself of its structural soundness. But many of the premises are still nuts and the quality and style of writing poor, to put it rather charitably. He starts by pinning the source of world 'craziness' on 'leftists', a broad category that appears to include 'animal activists' and people who find words like 'chick' and 'negro' derogatory and with a helpful forward reference to some 250 odd numbered paragraphs ahead. The whole thing is, again, 35k words. Consider, for comparison, the following famous pieces of political writing: The Communist Manifesto Thomas Paine's Common Sense Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal Each of these is shorter than 35k words. In fact, they're shorter than 35k words taken together.
        titzer 9y ago
        > But many of the premises are still nuts and the quality and style of writing poor, to put it rather charitably. See, this is the part of the dialog where if you simply point out which premises are "nuts" and then argue simply and objectively about them, then actual conversation happens (or is finished!). Trying to shut down the whole thing down with the vague term "crazy" (something so obviously self-evident to be in need of no justification) is really a disservice to everyone. I am not sure what point you are making with those other works. The Art of Computer Programming is three (3!) volumes. Is Don Knuth a nut? Euclid's Elements is also huge. Nuts?
  - watty 9y ago
    When someone goes crazy they don't lose the ability to use sophisticated language. I feel like people are reading the words and respecting the sophistication yet ignoring the meaning. What is he actually saying? Nothing that makes sense, hence the crazy part.
    - titzer 9y ago
      > Nothing that makes sense, hence the crazy part. Have you actually read the manifesto and tried to understand it instead of just dismissing it as "crazy"? The only way to distinguish nonsense from sense is to...try to make sense of it. IMO the only crazy part of the manifesto is the explanation and defense of his violence. But given that that violence almost certainly _did_ lead to a wider proliferation of his manifesto and ideas, it's even hard to argue that that was not an entirely rational (if inhuman) strategy.
mynameishere 9y ago
Lots of murderers leave behind manifestos. For some reason, Kaczynski's has always been well-regarded by the media. This is a testament to its sheer political banality, rather than any "funkiness". The guy was sayin' what all the newsmen were merely thinking. "Cool!" Now, Elliot Rodgers had a funky manifesto.

by tray5 9y ago

pvg 9y ago

That's pretty much "Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos." Lots of mentally ill people defend what they believe in very vigorously.

ramphastidae 9y ago
What's wrong with socialism?
tray5 9y ago
Not what I'm saying, I'm saying it is well thought out and has reasoned arguments. Not just that he believes in it a lot.
- pvg 9y ago
  Really? You're one of few people who think that. The 'manifesto' hits the crazy right off the bat and sticks to it for 35k words. "One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism [...] When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, “politically correct” types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like [...] Thus, what we mean by “leftism” will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology. (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.) [...] By “feelings of inferiority” we mean not only inferiority feelings in the strict sense but a whole spectrum of related traits; low self-esteem, feelings of powerlessness, depressive tendencies, defeatism, guilt, self- hatred, etc. We argue that modern leftists tend to have some such feelings (possibly more or less repressed) and that these feelings are decisive in determining the direction of modern leftism." You can get stuff of this quality by the shovelful from your typical bad subreddit, although usually not by one person all at once.
  - titzer 9y ago
    > We argue that modern leftists tend to have some such feelings (possibly more or less repressed) and that these feelings are decisive in determining the direction of modern leftism. So he made a (controversial) argument about leftists which actually fits in with his broader point that humans these days are not able to self actualize and therefore suffer from repressed feelings. IMO the statement he made is significantly less crazy than Freud's "scientific" theory of penis envy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy#Freud.27s_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_envy#Freud.27s_theory), which was treated as an actual theory by the scientific community for _decades_. It's a bit polemic about leftists in that regard, but do you think the overall point is invalid? If so, maybe argue why instead of just calling him crazy.
    - pvg 9y ago
      I think you are conflating 'has some sort of internal logic' with 'sane'. Of course you can dig around the thing and find some idea that appeals or convince yourself of its structural soundness. But many of the premises are still nuts and the quality and style of writing poor, to put it rather charitably. He starts by pinning the source of world 'craziness' on 'leftists', a broad category that appears to include 'animal activists' and people who find words like 'chick' and 'negro' derogatory and with a helpful forward reference to some 250 odd numbered paragraphs ahead. The whole thing is, again, 35k words. Consider, for comparison, the following famous pieces of political writing: The Communist Manifesto Thomas Paine's Common Sense Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal Each of these is shorter than 35k words. In fact, they're shorter than 35k words taken together.
      - titzer 9y ago
        > But many of the premises are still nuts and the quality and style of writing poor, to put it rather charitably. See, this is the part of the dialog where if you simply point out which premises are "nuts" and then argue simply and objectively about them, then actual conversation happens (or is finished!). Trying to shut down the whole thing down with the vague term "crazy" (something so obviously self-evident to be in need of no justification) is really a disservice to everyone. I am not sure what point you are making with those other works. The Art of Computer Programming is three (3!) volumes. Is Don Knuth a nut? Euclid's Elements is also huge. Nuts?
- watty 9y ago
  When someone goes crazy they don't lose the ability to use sophisticated language. I feel like people are reading the words and respecting the sophistication yet ignoring the meaning. What is he actually saying? Nothing that makes sense, hence the crazy part.
  - titzer 9y ago
    > Nothing that makes sense, hence the crazy part. Have you actually read the manifesto and tried to understand it instead of just dismissing it as "crazy"? The only way to distinguish nonsense from sense is to...try to make sense of it. IMO the only crazy part of the manifesto is the explanation and defense of his violence. But given that that violence almost certainly _did_ lead to a wider proliferation of his manifesto and ideas, it's even hard to argue that that was not an entirely rational (if inhuman) strategy.

mynameishere 9y ago

Lots of murderers leave behind manifestos. For some reason, Kaczynski's has always been well-regarded by the media. This is a testament to its sheer political banality, rather than any "funkiness". The guy was sayin' what all the newsmen were merely thinking. "Cool!" Now, Elliot Rodgers had a funky manifesto.