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I never quite understood why domain-blocking works so well for ad-blockers. I'm surprised why sites don't just use a reverse proxy or something to serve from th

I never quite understood why domain-blocking works so well for ad-blockers. I'm surprised why sites don't just use a reverse proxy or something to serve from those ad domains. What am I missing?

ghughes 9y ago
That's exactly what the adtech industry is starting to do. They've even got WordPress and Cloudflare plugins that can dynamically reinsert blocked ads via their proxy.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  Just wait for Bayesian filters that block specific areas of the downloaded content.
  - firebones 9y ago
    Core War, only for adtech. Let the games begin.
  - flukus 9y ago
    Canvas + WebAssembly to the advertisers rescue. You didn't really think this technology was created to make life better for users did you?
- gradys 9y ago
  Maybe not with the techniques they're using now, but if humans can tell it's an ad, then an ad blocker with say an image recognition model can too.
  - SerLava 9y ago
    Easy- just make ads that humans can't tell are ads. Also helps if you make ads that the FCC can't tell are ads! As they've been doing.... sigh.
    - PeachPlum 9y ago
      First page impression : I'm just going to sip from my delicious cup of Niscafe coffee, the best around, while I write this review of the Nvodua graphics card. Next page impression I'm just going to dab my brow with the silky smooth Kloonix napkin, the best around, while I write this review of the Nvodua graphics card. etc.
  - loeg 9y ago
    Native content can be really difficult for humans to distinguish.
    - Spivak 9y ago
      Surely there will be an eventual crackdown of sponsored content that isn't marked as such.
      - iainmerrick 9y ago
        Crackdown by whom? Advertisers and publishers are generally in favor of it, consumers don't care, watchdogs are toothless.
        brainfire 9y ago
        In the US, the FTC. Or do you consider them toothless? It does seem like they're at least making the appearance of trying: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/lord-taylor-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-through https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/lord-...
      - PeachPlum 9y ago
        Product placement is legal in TV, why not papers published on arxiv?
- teolandon 9y ago
  As long as I am able to block any element I want using my browser (and god help us if we reach a state where we can't), I won't have to look at any ad for more than 2 seconds. Any website that has too many ads to disable manually, or is in some way embedded with critical parts of the website is simply not worth my time.
  - clarry 9y ago
    > As long as I am able to block any element I want using my browser (and god help us if we reach a state where we can't) Render content & ads on a single canvas?
    - dkersten 9y ago
      I believe that falls under > Any website that has too many ads to disable manually, or is in some way embedded with critical parts of the website is simply not worth my time.
- _pmf_ 9y ago
  > They've even got WordPress and Cloudflare plugins that can dynamically reinsert blocked ads via their proxy. Using https with CDNs is basically a very funny large scale practical joke.
rahimnathwani 9y ago
If the ads were static (e.g. advertiser A bought a specific place on one of publisher B's pages, for a month), and advertiser A didn't want independent verification that the ads were seen, then your proposal could be simply implemented. "What am I missing?" Many ads are served after real-time auction: whilst your browser is loading and rendering the page, an auction is going between advertisers for the ad spot(s) on the page. The auction happens quickly, but it adds latency. Adding a reverse proxy would add further latency, and would remove the ability for ad networks to properly target ads (e.g. using cookies) and account for impressions.
- kakarot 9y ago
  Would you mind expanding a bit on this real-time auction thing, like how common it is and what the process looks like, or could you point me in the direction of the sources you used to make that claim? Thanks!
  - munchbunny 9y ago
    If you search for the terms "real time bidding" and "ad exchange", you will find a lot of literature on how it works. The explanation and the technical underpinnings are a bit involved, which is why I'm not just outright explaining here, but you will find explanations pretty readily.
  - mangoceylon 9y ago
    If you poke around AppNexus, you will find what you are looking for. The process is basically: a visitor comes to the site, each connected ad network/buyer has 100ms to provide a bid, the top bidder wins.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      What happens with ad blocking visitors? They never become a visitor to bid for? I'd actually like for my ad blocker to download all ads and pretend to download the ad, and give the impression of an impression. That way someone would have made a bid for that impression. Otherwise what will happen is that as ad blocking use becomes more and more widespread, the ad viewers become fewer but more profitable (Ironically perhaps more profitable on average than the original set of viewers, because adblock users weren't likely to click in the first place). If ad blocking is to be a way of killing online advertising in its current form, and not just improving the browser experience (and this is what I think should be the goal) then it needs to cheat the ad networks, they can't just pretend the request never happened.
pedro_hab 9y ago
It's the easiest way to serve an dynamic ad, it will require further configuration to get it to go through your own domain, and ad blockers block by element selectors and ad placement, so even those served through your domain will eventually get blocked. To avoid adblocker one would have to actually blend the ad with page moving it in the page to avoid getting detected, which might not be acceptable UX/UI.
- intrasight 9y ago
  Please elaborate. I assumed just the opposite was the case.
retox 9y ago
Probably a bad idea to let ad companies serve from your domain. It would give them access to cookies and local context javascript.
p49k 9y ago
Advertisers/ad networks need to serve ads from their own domains so that they can identify the visitor via 3rd-party cookies and serve the most appropriate ad.
- iamaelephant 9y ago
  No, they don't "need" to do that. Not any more than newspaper, magazine or television advertisers "need" to know anything about the individuals seeing the ad, beyond the target demographic of the publication. They do it because there's money in it, but if website owners could put the welfare of their customers ahead of the relentless pursuit of profit by serving manually curated, static, untargeted ads we could have a much nicer web.
- notzorbo3 9y ago
  > serve the most appropriate ad Is it just me, or is this approach not very useful? I'll google for a certain product, do a little bit of research and then buy what I finally picked. Then I'm stuck with seeing ads for similar products for the forseeable future. Ads for a product I already bought and no longer have an interest in. I think ads would actually do better if they're just targeted to the demographic that fits the page I'm currently looking at without being personalized.
  - geocar 9y ago
    > I think ads would actually do better if they're just targeted to the demographic that fits the page I'm currently looking at without being personalized. There's a gap: Getting search/retargeting interest information is almost instant, but finding out you've purchased is hard and takes time. However it's effective enough: Retargeting boosts most verticals by as much as 3-5x, and where that one click pays $1 the ads cost about $3 per thousand to display them.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
gorhill 9y ago
Sites do this. For example, see Instart Logic: https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...

I never quite understood why domain-blocking works so well for ad-blockers. I'm surprised why sites don't just use a reverse proxy or something to serve from those ad domains. What am I missing?

ghughes 9y ago

That's exactly what the adtech industry is starting to do. They've even got WordPress and Cloudflare plugins that can dynamically reinsert blocked ads via their proxy.

duncan_bayne 9y ago
Just wait for Bayesian filters that block specific areas of the downloaded content.
- firebones 9y ago
  Core War, only for adtech. Let the games begin.
- flukus 9y ago
  Canvas + WebAssembly to the advertisers rescue. You didn't really think this technology was created to make life better for users did you?
gradys 9y ago
Maybe not with the techniques they're using now, but if humans can tell it's an ad, then an ad blocker with say an image recognition model can too.
- SerLava 9y ago
  Easy- just make ads that humans can't tell are ads. Also helps if you make ads that the FCC can't tell are ads! As they've been doing.... sigh.
  - PeachPlum 9y ago
    First page impression : I'm just going to sip from my delicious cup of Niscafe coffee, the best around, while I write this review of the Nvodua graphics card. Next page impression I'm just going to dab my brow with the silky smooth Kloonix napkin, the best around, while I write this review of the Nvodua graphics card. etc.
- loeg 9y ago
  Native content can be really difficult for humans to distinguish.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    Surely there will be an eventual crackdown of sponsored content that isn't marked as such.
    - iainmerrick 9y ago
      Crackdown by whom? Advertisers and publishers are generally in favor of it, consumers don't care, watchdogs are toothless.
      - brainfire 9y ago
        In the US, the FTC. Or do you consider them toothless? It does seem like they're at least making the appearance of trying: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/lord-taylor-settles-ftc-charges-it-deceived-consumers-through https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2016/03/lord-...
    - PeachPlum 9y ago
      Product placement is legal in TV, why not papers published on arxiv?
teolandon 9y ago
As long as I am able to block any element I want using my browser (and god help us if we reach a state where we can't), I won't have to look at any ad for more than 2 seconds. Any website that has too many ads to disable manually, or is in some way embedded with critical parts of the website is simply not worth my time.
- clarry 9y ago
  > As long as I am able to block any element I want using my browser (and god help us if we reach a state where we can't) Render content & ads on a single canvas?
  - dkersten 9y ago
    I believe that falls under > Any website that has too many ads to disable manually, or is in some way embedded with critical parts of the website is simply not worth my time.
_pmf_ 9y ago
> They've even got WordPress and Cloudflare plugins that can dynamically reinsert blocked ads via their proxy. Using https with CDNs is basically a very funny large scale practical joke.

rahimnathwani 9y ago

If the ads were static (e.g. advertiser A bought a specific place on one of publisher B's pages, for a month), and advertiser A didn't want independent verification that the ads were seen, then your proposal could be simply implemented. "What am I missing?" Many ads are served after real-time auction: whilst your browser is loading and rendering the page, an auction is going between advertisers for the ad spot(s) on the page. The auction happens quickly, but it adds latency. Adding a reverse proxy would add further latency, and would remove the ability for ad networks to properly target ads (e.g. using cookies) and account for impressions.

kakarot 9y ago
Would you mind expanding a bit on this real-time auction thing, like how common it is and what the process looks like, or could you point me in the direction of the sources you used to make that claim? Thanks!
- munchbunny 9y ago
  If you search for the terms "real time bidding" and "ad exchange", you will find a lot of literature on how it works. The explanation and the technical underpinnings are a bit involved, which is why I'm not just outright explaining here, but you will find explanations pretty readily.
- mangoceylon 9y ago
  If you poke around AppNexus, you will find what you are looking for. The process is basically: a visitor comes to the site, each connected ad network/buyer has 100ms to provide a bid, the top bidder wins.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    What happens with ad blocking visitors? They never become a visitor to bid for? I'd actually like for my ad blocker to download all ads and pretend to download the ad, and give the impression of an impression. That way someone would have made a bid for that impression. Otherwise what will happen is that as ad blocking use becomes more and more widespread, the ad viewers become fewer but more profitable (Ironically perhaps more profitable on average than the original set of viewers, because adblock users weren't likely to click in the first place). If ad blocking is to be a way of killing online advertising in its current form, and not just improving the browser experience (and this is what I think should be the goal) then it needs to cheat the ad networks, they can't just pretend the request never happened.

pedro_hab 9y ago

It's the easiest way to serve an dynamic ad, it will require further configuration to get it to go through your own domain, and ad blockers block by element selectors and ad placement, so even those served through your domain will eventually get blocked. To avoid adblocker one would have to actually blend the ad with page moving it in the page to avoid getting detected, which might not be acceptable UX/UI.

intrasight 9y ago
Please elaborate. I assumed just the opposite was the case.

retox 9y ago

Probably a bad idea to let ad companies serve from your domain. It would give them access to cookies and local context javascript.

p49k 9y ago

Advertisers/ad networks need to serve ads from their own domains so that they can identify the visitor via 3rd-party cookies and serve the most appropriate ad.

iamaelephant 9y ago
No, they don't "need" to do that. Not any more than newspaper, magazine or television advertisers "need" to know anything about the individuals seeing the ad, beyond the target demographic of the publication. They do it because there's money in it, but if website owners could put the welfare of their customers ahead of the relentless pursuit of profit by serving manually curated, static, untargeted ads we could have a much nicer web.
notzorbo3 9y ago
> serve the most appropriate ad Is it just me, or is this approach not very useful? I'll google for a certain product, do a little bit of research and then buy what I finally picked. Then I'm stuck with seeing ads for similar products for the forseeable future. Ads for a product I already bought and no longer have an interest in. I think ads would actually do better if they're just targeted to the demographic that fits the page I'm currently looking at without being personalized.
- geocar 9y ago
  > I think ads would actually do better if they're just targeted to the demographic that fits the page I'm currently looking at without being personalized. There's a gap: Getting search/retargeting interest information is almost instant, but finding out you've purchased is hard and takes time. However it's effective enough: Retargeting boosts most verticals by as much as 3-5x, and where that one click pays $1 the ads cost about $3 per thousand to display them.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

gorhill 9y ago

Sites do this. For example, see Instart Logic: https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO-Extra-is-useful#instart-logic https://github.com/gorhill/uBO-Extra/wiki/Sites-on-which-uBO...