8 ms·

Branding workaholism as a desirable lifestyle choice

95 points by artur_makly 9y ago

gaius 9y ago
A VC doesn't care about your health. If you don't look after yourself, no-one will.
leggomylibro 9y ago
This sort of attitude is extremely toxic. Hey, guess what happens when you tell someone you work in programming in a large (tech) city? They immediately write you out of their life as someone who is A) boring and B) working 24/7 anyways. Typecasting sucks.
- hyperbovine 9y ago
  Did you not just typecast everybody who gets told you work in programming in a large city?
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    I've been trying to meet new people for 3 years straight after moving to a new city with lots of programmers. It's anecdotal, but I'm speaking from experience. I don't know anybody in this city who I don't work with. I have never had more than one conversation with someone who I wasn't about to pay for something. It's awful. It's so lonely. And I've never run into this issue in other places. I work less than 9-5 and have hobbies outside of work, but...nothing.
    - _sdegutis 9y ago
      Have you tried going to local public social events? Have you tried avoiding mentioning your job and just say you work in IT? I'm not saying these will work, just brainstorming ideas. If you figure out the public venues where people with similar interests as you hang out, it might be easier to go and meet them without discussing work.
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
        Yes - for years. It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests, or if people showed up to recurring events for generic interests like board games or hikes more than once or twice. There's a big problem with taking a city and shoving a bunch of milquetoast bland new grads in. People hate them, and eventually grow a filter to just ignore them. You'll never convince them that you're any different; it's a waste of time trying.
        kelnos 9y ago
        > It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests I think that's the main problem. If you found people who shared your interests, it wouldn't matter what they thought about your job. Assuming there really isn't anyone in your city that shares your interests (or few enough that means finding them is prohibitively difficult), then your only recourse might be to move elsewhere... absent finding new interests, heh.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
        Yyyyup, I'm coming to the same conclusion. Just gotta wait out some leases, and that'll mean a bit more stock before I split anyways.
        _sdegutis 9y ago
        Sorry to hear that. Have you tried less conventional meeting places like local church events or book clubs at your public library?
        ansible 9y ago
        To add to the list: Take an art class. It doesn't matter if you can't draw worth a darn. Just try. Or some other class that interests you.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
    - rootsudo 9y ago
      Is it a fun big city or rural midwest? I've never run into this issue. But, not making friends in a new city may just mean it's a personality issue vs a friend making issue. Have you tried dating apps? They have a friend option.
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
        It's a fun city; I'd love it if not for the people. It's baffling and honestly distressing; I've made friends before in other places. I don't have political views anathema to how most people in the area think. I try to be respectful and unobtrusive and kind. I honestly moved here thinking it'd be full of weirdos like me. I dunno, maybe that's the problem. And don't even get me started on dating apps.
        mercer 9y ago
        This fascinates me so I'd really like to hear more! Do you have any idea what might be the difference in this situation compared to other places? Just off the top of my head one thing that comes to mind is that age might play a role. I've noticed that making new friends in a new place has been more difficult since I entered my thirties. Another could definitely be culture. While I believe almost every city beyond a certain size will have 'pockets' of particular types of people, and thus that it should be possible to make friends anywhere, I've definitely found that in some places my kind of crowd is kind of 'hidden' within the more popular culture(s). This seems to be more an issue in smaller cities, but still.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
        Thanks, but I'll pass on being your specimen. It's fucking depressing, why would you be fascinated and want to know more? NOBODY is fascinated or wants to know more about me, what's your angle?
        mercer 9y ago
        My angle is that I myself struggle with this too. And I've met quite a few people who struggle with similar issues. And 'loneliness' as a more general topic has been a central 'interest' in my life precisely because I know how terrible the feeling is, and because it's perhaps the worst feeling I've had in my life so far. Anyways, I didn't mean to insult you or treat you like a specimen, so I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I'd honestly love to talk about this more if you're open to it. If so, you can find my email address on my profile. Again, sorry for upsetting you! I hope things improve for you.
    - throwaway-1111 9y ago
      Hey, I'm sorry to hear that Seattle is that way for you. I moved to Redmond around a month ago and have had a similar experience - colleagues rather than friends. I agree that going to art classes, language classes, etc are a good way to meet people - I do wonder if the people there are more likely to want to discuss their passions rather than their jobs (hopefully). Might even be less flaky since it's hopefully activities they find more interesting than work. If you want someone to talk to in the area, feel free to shoot me an email (throwaway account here).
    - mleonhard 9y ago
      I had a similar experience in Seattle in 2007-2010. "Seattle Chill" is real. San Francisco is great tho.
- sotojuan 9y ago
  This has never happened to me in either dating or friendship (in NYC).
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    I guess I should have been more specific; I'm talking about cities where programming and tech are the major growing employment markets like SF. NYC is a much more stable and healthy area.
    - kelnos 9y ago
      Ah, SF. I live in SF (and am a programmer) and don't see this problem. I think I just don't use work as a focus for conversations with new people. If it comes up (with someone I can reasonably guess isn't in tech), I'll usually just self-deprecatingly say something like "oh, yeah, I'm just another one of those software people", and then move on to another topic. I've never had anyone push me to focus on it and vent their frustrations on "tech people", or even just dismiss me because of my job.
- Floegipoky 9y ago
  Which city?
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    Seattle. Abandon hope, all ye who enter.
    - selimthegrim 9y ago
      Reading your comments was an uncomfortable reminder of my 2.5 years in Portland in tech (and I had family there). I was like, "this is probably Seattle"
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
        Yeah. I'm probably going back to the East Coast in a year or so.
      - icynw 9y ago
        same across portland, seattle and vancouver canada. I think it is something to do with the weather, like the "umbrella" effect. Disappears once you go somewhere more sunny. http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/if-you-werenrsquot-born-in-seattle-or-the-northwest-yoursquoll-never-be-one-of-us/ http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/if-you-weren...
      - tspike 9y ago
        It's a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
    - umanwizard 9y ago
      I already knew you were in Seattle from your other comments before I scrolled down to this one. Just move to New York.
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
- marssaxman 9y ago
  That's not been my experience of Seattle at all. One of the reasons I have stayed here so long is that there's so much cultural overlap between techies, artists, musicians, burners, etc. Maybe this is something that has been changing recently - I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know. And perhaps Burning Man culture is not the binding force it used to be, now that the event has gone mainstream. It did take me at least a year before I really started making any friends here, but my experience has been that... once you find your way in, you're in.
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    >I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know. Yep, that's been 100% my experience. I don't know what a "brogrammer" is, only that apparently I am one and they are scum. And I've been here for 3 years. It's been getting worse; two years ago people would at least talk to me for more than a few minutes at a time. One year ago people would grudgingly give me a chance, but you could see them clocking out once tech stuff came up. This year, the resentment is palpable. And I'm so tired of putting in so much and ... I just can't do this anymore.
    - lawnchair_larry 9y ago
      Can you blame them? You took their homes. I would resent anybody who took my home.
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
        Yes, I can. I didn't take shit; I don't own property, and at this rate, their precious houses are in no danger from me. So mission accomplished; congratufuckinglations. And I'll bet you dislike Trump's anti-immigration policies, to boot. So do I, but unlike people here I put my money where my mouth is.
        jacalata 9y ago
        What is that even supposed to mean? You donated money to immigrants, maybe? Unlike what you imagine other Seattlites do? Also, it's silly to think that you'd have to own a house to be part of the "taking their homes" equation.
sotojuan 9y ago
Not in SV, but so happy my NYC startup has never asked me work outside of 10-6. Good startups exist!
- efefefe 9y ago
  Literal 10-6? If so, you're working less than 8 hours with a lunch, no? Sounds like a sweet gig.
paloaltokid 9y ago
Plug: come work for Pivotal. We do 9-6 all day everyday.
- kenjackson 9y ago
  I'm not sure I want to work 9-6 everyday. I still like my weekends.
  - paloaltokid 9y ago
    Fair enough, it's only Monday through Friday.
- tedajax 9y ago
  That's 1 hour too long.
  - yladiz 9y ago
    9-6 is normal, if you count lunch. It's just 8-5 pushed one hour ahead so you can sleep in.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      This varies. Some places do a 37.5 hour work week, 9-5 with a 30 minute lunch. Others do 9-6 with an hour. There's also no shortage of places (such as my workplace) that do 35 hour work week, 9-5 with 1 hour lunch. Well, assuming you work for a company that puts much stock in ass-in-seat time (which, lucky for me, I don't).
      - paloaltokid 9y ago
        Pivotal targets a 40-hour work week. If you have to work beyond that you get comp.
lemonycracket 9y ago
9-5 is for losers because that's TOO MANY hours The winners work 3-5 hours tops and pull in $100/hour in pay and then spend the rest of their free time "living".
9to5guy 9y ago
I work 9-430 most days and it doesn't seem to be hurting the ole paycheck. I'm not buying Maseratis but I am financially independent after around a decade in the valley. Hard work and cleverness and a reasonable helping of luck can get you paid out here, even with regular hours.
arthurjj 9y ago
I ended up getting fat and a few health issues working at a unicorn start up. It took me 18 months to realize how badly I was handling it. Correcting for that work culture required a decent about of self reflection and introspection, that was hard to manage while working 60 hours a week.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dahdum 9y ago
From the article: "The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. " I don't see how the study, which was done on manufacturing / production workers, necessarily applies to knowledge workers or entrepreneurs? My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  > My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have. Did your experience rigorously measure how many mistakes (bugs, if you're a developer) you made during hours over 56 relative to baseline, and how much it cost someone else down the road in cleanup and opportunity costs to fix them? With programmers, at least, they can keep writing code well into 100 hours a week and beyond, but the trustworthiness of that code falls off, and that's a problem. It's a well-known result that fixing bugs costs many times more than not making them to begin with.
  - bigleagueposter 9y ago
    If it was a failed startup all their code was in the end useless garbage.
    - vecter 9y ago
      That's a pretty silly, cynical, and useless way to look at it. The evaluation should be from a technical point of view of code quality: did the code do what it was supposed to do, and do it well? After all, that's what's being debated in this particular thread. This is independent of the business value of the code, which of course matters in an entirely different way. However, that's not really the responsibility of the engineer so much as it is the business leaders.
deleted 9y ago
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Animats 9y ago
The guy is developing an app that lets you visualize how a coffee table from a catalog might look in your living room. Something Autodesk has offered for years and gives away.[1] Available for IOS, Android, and browser. This guy is killing himself to build a me-too product. [1] https://www.homestyler.com/mobile https://www.homestyler.com/mobile
- nxc18 9y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. Its sad, but I see soooo many startups that (somehow) get funding to: * Build an idea that already exists, is cheap, and well-executed by another company * Build something that is so limited in scope that it could be replaced by a competitor (or your OS) basically overnight
  - pascalxus 9y ago
    That's because the amount of talent, companies, developers and workforce far exceeds the number of available opportunities, so naturally only a tiny percent can build something of great enough value.
  - jpm_sd 9y ago
    He isn't even the only me-too! https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15526478/houzz-3d-ar-home-renovation-furniture-shopping-app-update https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15526478/houzz-3d-ar-home-...
  - Animats 9y ago
    You could do something interesting in that space. Autodesk stopped offering HomeStyler. It's now offered by 北京居然设计家家居连锁集团有限公司, which is www.shejijia.com, a big furniture retailer in China. The software isn't the hard part. It's the furniture catalog. Such programs are only useful with a big 3D model catalog, and the party that has the incentive to provide that is a furniture dealer. Amazon needs that capability. Develop a good 3D capture program specialized for furniture and you might have something. Something that guides you through taking enough images to get the whole object into the model cleanly. Make that available to Amazon sellers. Or eBay sellers.
kelnos 9y ago
Anecdotal, obviously, but: I worked 80 hour weeks (including some time on weekends) for about a year and half as an early developer at a startup (employee 15) a bunch of years ago. The startup failed (pity-acquired by an investor a couple years after I left; common shareholders got nothing). I did learn a lot, and was fortunately paid very near market-rate, but it was at the expense of my physical and mental health, and social life during that period. And boy was I burned out by the end. Fortunately I was single and had no family, and even then it took a huge toll. At my current company (been there 6 years, joined as around employee 70), I tend to work ~45-hour weeks (with occasional very-short-term spikes near a product launch). The company is successful (IPO last year). I've learned a lot, but most importantly I'm happy. I have a busy social life, time for a SO, and take 4-6 weeks of vacation a year (as one of the relatively few people who actually takes full advantage of the unlimited vacation policy). Don't get me wrong: I work hard. I get a lot done. I just get it done without grinding myself down into nothing. In my experience there's a negative correlation between long hours and success&happiness. Certainly there are people who have found success through (or perhaps despite?) long hours. And maybe many of them have brainwashed themselves into believing all that has made them happy, and maybe even some of them are genuinely happy. I just don't think it's worth it -- for me. Everyone has a different definition of success: for some it's making 7 figures and retiring at 30 comfortably. For others it's making 9 figures and retiring lavishly. For others it's making less, but having a steady, secure job, and having copious time for hobbies, friends, and family. And everything in between. I think it's difficult to draw the line. For some people, working themselves nearly to death is actually what they want to do. I think that's fine, but the problem becomes when that is (as it somewhat is now) the norm, and people who don't want to do that, have to do so anyway just to survive in the industry.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "and even then it took a huge toll" There's a real lack of awareness of an openness about the toll crazy hours extract from all too many people, not just in startups but in many larger companies as well, and the prevalence of them not just in tech but among so many professions. A tiny fraction of society can lay back and relax off of a 2% or less interest on their investments, while so many of the rest are working until they collapse (physically or mentally), and it's considered business as usual -- and if you can't keep up you are stepped over and forgotten as the rest get on with getting ahead.
swiley 9y ago
Fucking business bullshit everywhere and everyone (especially the church for some reason) equating income to your worth as a person. "Software engineering" is a waste of time and it seperates you from all the women.
jaiprabhu 9y ago
I have never experienced such extreme attitude to work anywhere personally in my 10+ years of experience working in SV, across four different employers, I do, however, hear anecdotes of tough demands at some startups but that does seem all that pervasive either.
johncoogan 9y ago
You don't need to work 24/7. At most jobs, you just need to seem like you work 24/7. Batch up all your emails for the day, then space them out to be sent at odd hours like 11:30pm and 5:45am using something like Boomerang for Gmail.[1] Everyone will think you're working constantly. [1] http://www.boomeranggmail.com/ http://www.boomeranggmail.com/
- ACow_Adonis 9y ago
  You mean I don't have to be stupid,there's an app that just makes me look like I'm stupid! Praise the tech gods!
- zzalpha 9y ago
  I work at a company that's extremely supportive of good work life balance. We offer lots of flexibility on hours, facilitate working from home, and encourage people to work at a sustainable pace. That didn't stop one fellow, many years ago, from trying exactly this. He'd commit code that was simply reindentation/style changes, send emails, etc, late at night, in an attempt to paper over the fact that he was simply a weak contributor that produced low quality code. Everyone saw straight through him and recognized the absurdity for what it was. Maintain work-life balance. If the company you work for doesn't support that choice, work somewhere else. It is an absolute lie that "most jobs" need you to "seem like you work 24/7", and perpetuating that lie only makes it easier for the bad actors to justify their behaviour.
  - johncoogan 9y ago
    Completely agree. Was joking in my original comment. Obviously having a healthy lifestyle will lead to increased productivity. Fetishizing workaholism is dumb and a big part of why Wall Street is struggling to retain talent these days.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      Honestly, I figured that was the case, but, as my experience demonstrates, some people might actually take that suggestion seriously!
filereaper 9y ago
"The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. But the point may be less about productivity than about demonstrating commitment and team spirit." My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time. These types of statements discredit the "do or die" moments on which companies are built on.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time. If you ask me, R&D on a tight budget and timeline is the worst time to be overworked and exhausted, as it renders you less creative, and far more prone to make mistakes. Obviously it's a cost-benefit curve, but the research shows the benefits don't outweigh the costs beyond about 60 hours per week.
- pfranz 9y ago
  You need downtime to have a Eureka[1] moment. I see a lot of wasted time spinning wheels on the wrong thing. My wife's job has offices in a bunch of countries. Recently she was talking to someone they borrowed from Europe for a few weeks. They observed that in the U.S. they work many more hours, but take coffee breaks and intermingle work and leisure. They were suggesting they work fewer hours, but are more focused when at work. It's hard to tell, but I'd say their "output" is comparable (maybe an edge to the team in Europe). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(word)#Archimedes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(word)#Archimedes
badcede 9y ago
Rage-porn bunk. As if Vaynerchuk is representative of anything, let alone SV.
yladiz 9y ago
If I were to sell my soul to work insane hours (80+ per week) I'd work in finance instead of software development. The prospects of making it big in software are pretty slim, even with "hustle", because the important thing is not due to your work ethic as much as luck, capturing the right market, and being able to capitalize on it effectively. If you're doing a startup, you don't often start with much money and won't make good money until you're well past the point of profitability. Contrasting to finance, where you can (apparently, I don't know first hand) pull in mid 6 figures easily if you do your time and get the right clients (and once you get the right clients part of that high work time is meeting the client anyway). I consider workaholism just another form of addiction, and at least I'd like to get paid well for that addiction, and if I had the drive to start a business I'd at least have the capital to do it then. Beyond this, as an employee I think it is insane for a company to expect you to work the same as a co-founder for relatively little. If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture. I can kind of understand around "crunch time" even though I think it's a symptom of bad time management and probably announcing something before you should have. I can kind of understand a founder putting in that much work, even if I do think it's unhealthy, but not an employee.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture." Or it could be a sign that you work in ops.
  - yladiz 9y ago
    The needing your phone with you, yes, but not the 70 hours part. If you have to work 70 hours as an ops your employer is too stingy to get another ops.
  - autotune 9y ago
    Ops here. Never been on-call or had to work more than 40 hours in the previous 5 years of doing this as a career, but then again, I've always been a consultant in some capacity for multiple clients so YMMV.
Powerofmene 9y ago
I absolutely work too much. I always have and probably always will. I am the first to tell people to have a better work/life balance and to go watch their kids play ball, etc. I enjoy work and always have and thankfully my family understands. That being said, when I go on vacation, I really want to be on vacation. I don't answer email, participate in conference calls, etc. I work hard but when I am off, I am off. I respect people who say they don't want to work the hours I do, but there are those who enjoy work and spend lots of hours at work. Just because it is not for everybody does not mean that there are not those who choose to spend a great real of time at work.
nevatiaritika 9y ago
Its very disheartening that Silicon Valley would promote such lifestyles. As a tech worker outside the US, US has always seemed more promising than the rest of the world when it comes to innovations and myriad number of opportunities to realize dreams. So far I had been whining about how we have really bad inherent work cultures here in Japan. Its a norm for everyone to work overtime : 9am to 10pm is extremely normal. "Hardworking" guys send emails at 2 am and next day when I check my inbox, I'm somewhere burdened if my boss would expect the same of me. Clearly no one here understands that longer hours != more productivity. If the pioneer locations in the industry were to promote such culture, I wonder if countries like Japan would ever grow out of its current mindset validating their methods even more so.

95 points by artur_makly 9y ago

A VC doesn't care about your health. If you don't look after yourself, no-one will.

This sort of attitude is extremely toxic. Hey, guess what happens when you tell someone you work in programming in a large (tech) city? They immediately write you out of their life as someone who is A) boring and B) working 24/7 anyways. Typecasting sucks.

hyperbovine 9y ago
Did you not just typecast everybody who gets told you work in programming in a large city?
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  I've been trying to meet new people for 3 years straight after moving to a new city with lots of programmers. It's anecdotal, but I'm speaking from experience. I don't know anybody in this city who I don't work with. I have never had more than one conversation with someone who I wasn't about to pay for something. It's awful. It's so lonely. And I've never run into this issue in other places. I work less than 9-5 and have hobbies outside of work, but...nothing.
  - _sdegutis 9y ago
    Have you tried going to local public social events? Have you tried avoiding mentioning your job and just say you work in IT? I'm not saying these will work, just brainstorming ideas. If you figure out the public venues where people with similar interests as you hang out, it might be easier to go and meet them without discussing work.
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      Yes - for years. It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests, or if people showed up to recurring events for generic interests like board games or hikes more than once or twice. There's a big problem with taking a city and shoving a bunch of milquetoast bland new grads in. People hate them, and eventually grow a filter to just ignore them. You'll never convince them that you're any different; it's a waste of time trying.
      - kelnos 9y ago
        > It would help if I could find anyone who shared my interests I think that's the main problem. If you found people who shared your interests, it wouldn't matter what they thought about your job. Assuming there really isn't anyone in your city that shares your interests (or few enough that means finding them is prohibitively difficult), then your only recourse might be to move elsewhere... absent finding new interests, heh.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
        Yyyyup, I'm coming to the same conclusion. Just gotta wait out some leases, and that'll mean a bit more stock before I split anyways.
      - _sdegutis 9y ago
        Sorry to hear that. Have you tried less conventional meeting places like local church events or book clubs at your public library?
        ansible 9y ago
        To add to the list: Take an art class. It doesn't matter if you can't draw worth a darn. Just try. Or some other class that interests you.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
  - rootsudo 9y ago
    Is it a fun big city or rural midwest? I've never run into this issue. But, not making friends in a new city may just mean it's a personality issue vs a friend making issue. Have you tried dating apps? They have a friend option.
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      It's a fun city; I'd love it if not for the people. It's baffling and honestly distressing; I've made friends before in other places. I don't have political views anathema to how most people in the area think. I try to be respectful and unobtrusive and kind. I honestly moved here thinking it'd be full of weirdos like me. I dunno, maybe that's the problem. And don't even get me started on dating apps.
      - mercer 9y ago
        This fascinates me so I'd really like to hear more! Do you have any idea what might be the difference in this situation compared to other places? Just off the top of my head one thing that comes to mind is that age might play a role. I've noticed that making new friends in a new place has been more difficult since I entered my thirties. Another could definitely be culture. While I believe almost every city beyond a certain size will have 'pockets' of particular types of people, and thus that it should be possible to make friends anywhere, I've definitely found that in some places my kind of crowd is kind of 'hidden' within the more popular culture(s). This seems to be more an issue in smaller cities, but still.
        leggomylibro 9y ago
        Thanks, but I'll pass on being your specimen. It's fucking depressing, why would you be fascinated and want to know more? NOBODY is fascinated or wants to know more about me, what's your angle?
        mercer 9y ago
        My angle is that I myself struggle with this too. And I've met quite a few people who struggle with similar issues. And 'loneliness' as a more general topic has been a central 'interest' in my life precisely because I know how terrible the feeling is, and because it's perhaps the worst feeling I've had in my life so far. Anyways, I didn't mean to insult you or treat you like a specimen, so I'm sorry if that's how I came across. I'd honestly love to talk about this more if you're open to it. If so, you can find my email address on my profile. Again, sorry for upsetting you! I hope things improve for you.
  - throwaway-1111 9y ago
    Hey, I'm sorry to hear that Seattle is that way for you. I moved to Redmond around a month ago and have had a similar experience - colleagues rather than friends. I agree that going to art classes, language classes, etc are a good way to meet people - I do wonder if the people there are more likely to want to discuss their passions rather than their jobs (hopefully). Might even be less flaky since it's hopefully activities they find more interesting than work. If you want someone to talk to in the area, feel free to shoot me an email (throwaway account here).
  - mleonhard 9y ago
    I had a similar experience in Seattle in 2007-2010. "Seattle Chill" is real. San Francisco is great tho.
sotojuan 9y ago
This has never happened to me in either dating or friendship (in NYC).
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  I guess I should have been more specific; I'm talking about cities where programming and tech are the major growing employment markets like SF. NYC is a much more stable and healthy area.
  - kelnos 9y ago
    Ah, SF. I live in SF (and am a programmer) and don't see this problem. I think I just don't use work as a focus for conversations with new people. If it comes up (with someone I can reasonably guess isn't in tech), I'll usually just self-deprecatingly say something like "oh, yeah, I'm just another one of those software people", and then move on to another topic. I've never had anyone push me to focus on it and vent their frustrations on "tech people", or even just dismiss me because of my job.
Floegipoky 9y ago
Which city?
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Seattle. Abandon hope, all ye who enter.
  - selimthegrim 9y ago
    Reading your comments was an uncomfortable reminder of my 2.5 years in Portland in tech (and I had family there). I was like, "this is probably Seattle"
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      Yeah. I'm probably going back to the East Coast in a year or so.
    - icynw 9y ago
      same across portland, seattle and vancouver canada. I think it is something to do with the weather, like the "umbrella" effect. Disappears once you go somewhere more sunny. http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/if-you-werenrsquot-born-in-seattle-or-the-northwest-yoursquoll-never-be-one-of-us/ http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/if-you-weren...
    - tspike 9y ago
      It's a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
  - umanwizard 9y ago
    I already knew you were in Seattle from your other comments before I scrolled down to this one. Just move to New York.
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
marssaxman 9y ago
That's not been my experience of Seattle at all. One of the reasons I have stayed here so long is that there's so much cultural overlap between techies, artists, musicians, burners, etc. Maybe this is something that has been changing recently - I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know. And perhaps Burning Man culture is not the binding force it used to be, now that the event has gone mainstream. It did take me at least a year before I really started making any friends here, but my experience has been that... once you find your way in, you're in.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  >I hear people griping about "brogrammers" now, though I've never actually met one, so far as I know. Yep, that's been 100% my experience. I don't know what a "brogrammer" is, only that apparently I am one and they are scum. And I've been here for 3 years. It's been getting worse; two years ago people would at least talk to me for more than a few minutes at a time. One year ago people would grudgingly give me a chance, but you could see them clocking out once tech stuff came up. This year, the resentment is palpable. And I'm so tired of putting in so much and ... I just can't do this anymore.
  - lawnchair_larry 9y ago
    Can you blame them? You took their homes. I would resent anybody who took my home.
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      Yes, I can. I didn't take shit; I don't own property, and at this rate, their precious houses are in no danger from me. So mission accomplished; congratufuckinglations. And I'll bet you dislike Trump's anti-immigration policies, to boot. So do I, but unlike people here I put my money where my mouth is.
      - jacalata 9y ago
        What is that even supposed to mean? You donated money to immigrants, maybe? Unlike what you imagine other Seattlites do? Also, it's silly to think that you'd have to own a house to be part of the "taking their homes" equation.

sotojuan 9y ago

Not in SV, but so happy my NYC startup has never asked me work outside of 10-6. Good startups exist!

efefefe 9y ago
Literal 10-6? If so, you're working less than 8 hours with a lunch, no? Sounds like a sweet gig.

paloaltokid 9y ago

Plug: come work for Pivotal. We do 9-6 all day everyday.

kenjackson 9y ago
I'm not sure I want to work 9-6 everyday. I still like my weekends.
- paloaltokid 9y ago
  Fair enough, it's only Monday through Friday.
tedajax 9y ago
That's 1 hour too long.
- yladiz 9y ago
  9-6 is normal, if you count lunch. It's just 8-5 pushed one hour ahead so you can sleep in.
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - zzalpha 9y ago
    This varies. Some places do a 37.5 hour work week, 9-5 with a 30 minute lunch. Others do 9-6 with an hour. There's also no shortage of places (such as my workplace) that do 35 hour work week, 9-5 with 1 hour lunch. Well, assuming you work for a company that puts much stock in ass-in-seat time (which, lucky for me, I don't).
    - paloaltokid 9y ago
      Pivotal targets a 40-hour work week. If you have to work beyond that you get comp.

lemonycracket 9y ago

9-5 is for losers because that's TOO MANY hours The winners work 3-5 hours tops and pull in $100/hour in pay and then spend the rest of their free time "living".

9to5guy 9y ago

I work 9-430 most days and it doesn't seem to be hurting the ole paycheck. I'm not buying Maseratis but I am financially independent after around a decade in the valley. Hard work and cleverness and a reasonable helping of luck can get you paid out here, even with regular hours.

arthurjj 9y ago

I ended up getting fat and a few health issues working at a unicorn start up. It took me 18 months to realize how badly I was handling it. Correcting for that work culture required a decent about of self reflection and introspection, that was hard to manage while working 60 hours a week.

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dahdum 9y ago

From the article: "The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. " I don't see how the study, which was done on manufacturing / production workers, necessarily applies to knowledge workers or entrepreneurs? My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have.

Analemma_ 9y ago
> My experience working 80-90 hr weeks was that as long as I had flexibility to vary the tasks I didn't sense any drop in productivity. In many cases the fewer context switches increased the amount of "flow", and projects went more quickly than they would have. Did your experience rigorously measure how many mistakes (bugs, if you're a developer) you made during hours over 56 relative to baseline, and how much it cost someone else down the road in cleanup and opportunity costs to fix them? With programmers, at least, they can keep writing code well into 100 hours a week and beyond, but the trustworthiness of that code falls off, and that's a problem. It's a well-known result that fixing bugs costs many times more than not making them to begin with.
- bigleagueposter 9y ago
  If it was a failed startup all their code was in the end useless garbage.
  - vecter 9y ago
    That's a pretty silly, cynical, and useless way to look at it. The evaluation should be from a technical point of view of code quality: did the code do what it was supposed to do, and do it well? After all, that's what's being debated in this particular thread. This is independent of the business value of the code, which of course matters in an entirely different way. However, that's not really the responsibility of the engineer so much as it is the business leaders.

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Animats 9y ago

The guy is developing an app that lets you visualize how a coffee table from a catalog might look in your living room. Something Autodesk has offered for years and gives away.[1] Available for IOS, Android, and browser. This guy is killing himself to build a me-too product. [1] https://www.homestyler.com/mobile https://www.homestyler.com/mobile

nxc18 9y ago
Thanks for sharing this. Its sad, but I see soooo many startups that (somehow) get funding to: * Build an idea that already exists, is cheap, and well-executed by another company * Build something that is so limited in scope that it could be replaced by a competitor (or your OS) basically overnight
- pascalxus 9y ago
  That's because the amount of talent, companies, developers and workforce far exceeds the number of available opportunities, so naturally only a tiny percent can build something of great enough value.
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  He isn't even the only me-too! https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15526478/houzz-3d-ar-home-renovation-furniture-shopping-app-update https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15526478/houzz-3d-ar-home-...
- Animats 9y ago
  You could do something interesting in that space. Autodesk stopped offering HomeStyler. It's now offered by 北京居然设计家家居连锁集团有限公司, which is www.shejijia.com, a big furniture retailer in China. The software isn't the hard part. It's the furniture catalog. Such programs are only useful with a big 3D model catalog, and the party that has the incentive to provide that is a furniture dealer. Amazon needs that capability. Develop a good 3D capture program specialized for furniture and you might have something. Something that guides you through taking enough images to get the whole object into the model cleanly. Make that available to Amazon sellers. Or eBay sellers.

kelnos 9y ago

Anecdotal, obviously, but: I worked 80 hour weeks (including some time on weekends) for about a year and half as an early developer at a startup (employee 15) a bunch of years ago. The startup failed (pity-acquired by an investor a couple years after I left; common shareholders got nothing). I did learn a lot, and was fortunately paid very near market-rate, but it was at the expense of my physical and mental health, and social life during that period. And boy was I burned out by the end. Fortunately I was single and had no family, and even then it took a huge toll. At my current company (been there 6 years, joined as around employee 70), I tend to work ~45-hour weeks (with occasional very-short-term spikes near a product launch). The company is successful (IPO last year). I've learned a lot, but most importantly I'm happy. I have a busy social life, time for a SO, and take 4-6 weeks of vacation a year (as one of the relatively few people who actually takes full advantage of the unlimited vacation policy). Don't get me wrong: I work hard. I get a lot done. I just get it done without grinding myself down into nothing. In my experience there's a negative correlation between long hours and success&happiness. Certainly there are people who have found success through (or perhaps despite?) long hours. And maybe many of them have brainwashed themselves into believing all that has made them happy, and maybe even some of them are genuinely happy. I just don't think it's worth it -- for me. Everyone has a different definition of success: for some it's making 7 figures and retiring at 30 comfortably. For others it's making 9 figures and retiring lavishly. For others it's making less, but having a steady, secure job, and having copious time for hobbies, friends, and family. And everything in between. I think it's difficult to draw the line. For some people, working themselves nearly to death is actually what they want to do. I think that's fine, but the problem becomes when that is (as it somewhat is now) the norm, and people who don't want to do that, have to do so anyway just to survive in the industry.

pmoriarty 9y ago
"and even then it took a huge toll" There's a real lack of awareness of an openness about the toll crazy hours extract from all too many people, not just in startups but in many larger companies as well, and the prevalence of them not just in tech but among so many professions. A tiny fraction of society can lay back and relax off of a 2% or less interest on their investments, while so many of the rest are working until they collapse (physically or mentally), and it's considered business as usual -- and if you can't keep up you are stepped over and forgotten as the rest get on with getting ahead.

swiley 9y ago

Fucking business bullshit everywhere and everyone (especially the church for some reason) equating income to your worth as a person. "Software engineering" is a waste of time and it seperates you from all the women.

jaiprabhu 9y ago

I have never experienced such extreme attitude to work anywhere personally in my 10+ years of experience working in SV, across four different employers, I do, however, hear anecdotes of tough demands at some startups but that does seem all that pervasive either.

johncoogan 9y ago

You don't need to work 24/7. At most jobs, you just need to seem like you work 24/7. Batch up all your emails for the day, then space them out to be sent at odd hours like 11:30pm and 5:45am using something like Boomerang for Gmail.[1] Everyone will think you're working constantly. [1] http://www.boomeranggmail.com/ http://www.boomeranggmail.com/

ACow_Adonis 9y ago
You mean I don't have to be stupid,there's an app that just makes me look like I'm stupid! Praise the tech gods!
zzalpha 9y ago
I work at a company that's extremely supportive of good work life balance. We offer lots of flexibility on hours, facilitate working from home, and encourage people to work at a sustainable pace. That didn't stop one fellow, many years ago, from trying exactly this. He'd commit code that was simply reindentation/style changes, send emails, etc, late at night, in an attempt to paper over the fact that he was simply a weak contributor that produced low quality code. Everyone saw straight through him and recognized the absurdity for what it was. Maintain work-life balance. If the company you work for doesn't support that choice, work somewhere else. It is an absolute lie that "most jobs" need you to "seem like you work 24/7", and perpetuating that lie only makes it easier for the bad actors to justify their behaviour.
- johncoogan 9y ago
  Completely agree. Was joking in my original comment. Obviously having a healthy lifestyle will lead to increased productivity. Fetishizing workaholism is dumb and a big part of why Wall Street is struggling to retain talent these days.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Honestly, I figured that was the case, but, as my experience demonstrates, some people might actually take that suggestion seriously!

filereaper 9y ago

"The truth is that much of the extra effort these entrepreneurs and their employees are putting in is pointless anyway. Working beyond 56 hours in a week adds little productivity, according to a 2014 report by the Stanford economist John Pencavel. But the point may be less about productivity than about demonstrating commitment and team spirit." My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time. These types of statements discredit the "do or die" moments on which companies are built on.

zzalpha 9y ago
My main disagreement with this type of quote is how do you account for R&D? You have to try things out, not all of them work out, you throw things away, things don't work out as expected. If you're in a true startup, money is tight, deadlines are agressive, you have to put in the time. If you ask me, R&D on a tight budget and timeline is the worst time to be overworked and exhausted, as it renders you less creative, and far more prone to make mistakes. Obviously it's a cost-benefit curve, but the research shows the benefits don't outweigh the costs beyond about 60 hours per week.
pfranz 9y ago
You need downtime to have a Eureka[1] moment. I see a lot of wasted time spinning wheels on the wrong thing. My wife's job has offices in a bunch of countries. Recently she was talking to someone they borrowed from Europe for a few weeks. They observed that in the U.S. they work many more hours, but take coffee breaks and intermingle work and leisure. They were suggesting they work fewer hours, but are more focused when at work. It's hard to tell, but I'd say their "output" is comparable (maybe an edge to the team in Europe). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(word)#Archimedes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(word)#Archimedes

badcede 9y ago

Rage-porn bunk. As if Vaynerchuk is representative of anything, let alone SV.

yladiz 9y ago

If I were to sell my soul to work insane hours (80+ per week) I'd work in finance instead of software development. The prospects of making it big in software are pretty slim, even with "hustle", because the important thing is not due to your work ethic as much as luck, capturing the right market, and being able to capitalize on it effectively. If you're doing a startup, you don't often start with much money and won't make good money until you're well past the point of profitability. Contrasting to finance, where you can (apparently, I don't know first hand) pull in mid 6 figures easily if you do your time and get the right clients (and once you get the right clients part of that high work time is meeting the client anyway). I consider workaholism just another form of addiction, and at least I'd like to get paid well for that addiction, and if I had the drive to start a business I'd at least have the capital to do it then. Beyond this, as an employee I think it is insane for a company to expect you to work the same as a co-founder for relatively little. If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture. I can kind of understand around "crunch time" even though I think it's a symptom of bad time management and probably announcing something before you should have. I can kind of understand a founder putting in that much work, even if I do think it's unhealthy, but not an employee.

pmoriarty 9y ago
"If the culture was to be working 70 hours per week or essentially always needing to have your phone with you and be available, then it's the sign of a toxic work culture." Or it could be a sign that you work in ops.
- yladiz 9y ago
  The needing your phone with you, yes, but not the 70 hours part. If you have to work 70 hours as an ops your employer is too stingy to get another ops.
- autotune 9y ago
  Ops here. Never been on-call or had to work more than 40 hours in the previous 5 years of doing this as a career, but then again, I've always been a consultant in some capacity for multiple clients so YMMV.

Powerofmene 9y ago

I absolutely work too much. I always have and probably always will. I am the first to tell people to have a better work/life balance and to go watch their kids play ball, etc. I enjoy work and always have and thankfully my family understands. That being said, when I go on vacation, I really want to be on vacation. I don't answer email, participate in conference calls, etc. I work hard but when I am off, I am off. I respect people who say they don't want to work the hours I do, but there are those who enjoy work and spend lots of hours at work. Just because it is not for everybody does not mean that there are not those who choose to spend a great real of time at work.

nevatiaritika 9y ago

Its very disheartening that Silicon Valley would promote such lifestyles. As a tech worker outside the US, US has always seemed more promising than the rest of the world when it comes to innovations and myriad number of opportunities to realize dreams. So far I had been whining about how we have really bad inherent work cultures here in Japan. Its a norm for everyone to work overtime : 9am to 10pm is extremely normal. "Hardworking" guys send emails at 2 am and next day when I check my inbox, I'm somewhere burdened if my boss would expect the same of me. Clearly no one here understands that longer hours != more productivity. If the pioneer locations in the industry were to promote such culture, I wonder if countries like Japan would ever grow out of its current mindset validating their methods even more so.