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I'm on the same side as you about the fights. I'm just not a fan of the hypocrisy of letting people fight their anger away on national TV when someone doing the

I'm on the same side as you about the fights. I'm just not a fan of the hypocrisy of letting people fight their anger away on national TV when someone doing the same in a public space would get arrested. I've played hockey, I get the whole aspect of being emotionally invested in the game, but I still don't think it's the right thing to do. Otherwise, I always thought the concussion aspect was much less worst in the NHL than NFL, but maybe im wrong about that...

ThrustVectoring 9y ago
I've heard arguments that fights in hockey reduce the overall level of violence through changing incentives. Basically, it means that rough play will get you punched, so people are less willing to futz around on the ice.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  I've heard that before - like the reason that Crosby spends so much time laid out is that the Pens refused to use an enforcer to punish the guys who were roughing him up. That, to me, sounds like anarchy on the ice. Like the game is either impossible to properly referee or the referees are incompetent or the refs simply have been told to ignore a certain level of violence.
  - Jeremy1026 9y ago
    Hockey is a contact sport, and because of that the referees can't issue a penalty everytime someone gets hit. There are hits that are illegal, and they are called (most of the time). Hits where the principle contact point is the head is illegal, hits directly from behind are illegal, and hits where the hitter takes more than two strides into the hit are illegal. Anything else is fair game and because of that, the puck carrier needs to keep their head up and be proactive to the play.
    - Coincoin 9y ago
      It's more than that, in the NHL at least. Why are scuffles around the net tolerated? They are disgraceful. Almost every game you will see someone get punched or cross checked in the face with no consequence, as long as it's after the whistle or the victim is an asshole. Which leads to my next point. Why is general assholery tolerated and even celebrated? There is a thing called sportsmanship and there is none of it in the NHL until they put someone on a stretcher. They bang their stick on the boards for 5 seconds then it's open season for the other guy. Why are fights only 5 minutes penalty? Any other sport they would get suspended for even half attempting to punch someone. The NHL and PA say it's some sort of anarchy-on-ice bullshit but we all know it's because it sells tickets and have otherwise poor players make the cut.
      - Jeremy1026 9y ago
        The majority of those pushing matches after the whistle are a continuation of the play from before it. Defender is trying to clear the front of the net, offensive player is trying to secure position to screen the goalie, get a deflection, or tuck away a rebound. When the whistle blows the players are still tangled and the pushing continues. Sometimes its the offensive player who took an extra whack or two at the puck after it was blown dead that draws the push. These hits are very superficial, they are mainly a "I saw what you did, knock it off" message. There is plenty of sportsmanship in the NHL. Almost every fight is between willing participants who discuss it first to ensure the other party isn't playing with an injury or something. Handshake lines after playoff series when you just spent the past week and a half playing the same opponent every other day. There is plenty of shit talking from the benches, but wingers will typically shoot the shit a bit when lining up for faceoffs. Why is fighting only a 5 minute penalty? Because see above about "dem da rules". Fighting has always been a part of the game, and has fallen dramatically in the past few years. Players don't tend to get head injuries from fights, and when they do its because they fell awkwardly and hit the ice with their head. The hits that are borderline dirty or overly aggressive just aren't there, knowing that you might have to put up for a fight for giving the hit. Those hits are the ones that are causing the injuries. From behind, sending your opponent face first into the boards. Lining up the big hit from across the ice. Steve Moore jumping on Tood Bertuzzi's back and driving his head into the ice. Those are the plays that have lasting affects.
  - mi100hael 9y ago
    Nah, you're over thinking it. Heavy hits are perfectly legal and (for the most part) the refs aren't making mistakes or ignoring illegal behavior. Enforcers just discourage the opposing team from making those legal hits.
- watwut 9y ago
  I find it implausible. Ice hockey players are not the kind of dude who get scared by a bit of pain after being hit. If they would, they would not played hockey (which hurts even outside fights and gets you injuries often).
arrosenberg 9y ago
Hockey fights in 2017 aren't really comparable to what fighting in hockey used to be though. The enforcer role is all but gone, the rules around hits are more stringent and the league is far more rigorous with enforcement. I think the bigger risk in the game today is from the speed of collisions, having too much padding and high hits.
- ptaipale 9y ago
  And anyway, fighting is not where the injuries happen. Ugly tackles to the head are the bad thing.
  - brohoolio 9y ago
    Actual the enforcers in hockey who fight have some of the worst brain damage. Bob Probert, an enforcer for the Red Wings is an example of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Probert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Probert
santoshalper 9y ago
Hits are much less frequent in hockey (they happen several times per play in Football) and the players are much smaller, but they are moving really fast and playing on ice. I think the worst hits in Hockey would rival anything in Football, but I don't think the prevalence of CTE will be as high.
autokad 9y ago
hockey has more concussions today than the clutch and grab days of the past. this is a 2 fold reason: #1 players are moving faster now - expected #2 clutch and grab actually penalized larger players, as it took more energy to get moving again (hockey is an endurance sport). now player size is inflating. I think the football solution is to force players smaller again. One way to accomplish this is to weight pun salary caps by body weight. The sport can keep its old aspects.
- dsacco 9y ago
  Can you flesh out your weightclass idea of salary brackets there? I'm curious to understand how you think it would work.
- soperj 9y ago
  Hockey players are getting smaller, not bigger. You would have never seen guys like Martin St.Louis, Conacher, Gaudreau, Tyler Johnson, make it in the late 90s. That a guy like Kailer Yamamoto gets drafted in the first round shows that things have changed for smaller players.
Analemma_ 9y ago
> Otherwise, I always thought the concussion aspect was much less worst in the NHL than NFL, but maybe im wrong about that... Maybe, but what we're discovering is that concussions aren't the only problem: you can get CTE even from the repeated sub-concussive hits that linemen get constantly. By focusing on concussions the NFL is dodging the issue.

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

I've heard arguments that fights in hockey reduce the overall level of violence through changing incentives. Basically, it means that rough play will get you punched, so people are less willing to futz around on the ice.

Pxtl 9y ago
I've heard that before - like the reason that Crosby spends so much time laid out is that the Pens refused to use an enforcer to punish the guys who were roughing him up. That, to me, sounds like anarchy on the ice. Like the game is either impossible to properly referee or the referees are incompetent or the refs simply have been told to ignore a certain level of violence.
- Jeremy1026 9y ago
  Hockey is a contact sport, and because of that the referees can't issue a penalty everytime someone gets hit. There are hits that are illegal, and they are called (most of the time). Hits where the principle contact point is the head is illegal, hits directly from behind are illegal, and hits where the hitter takes more than two strides into the hit are illegal. Anything else is fair game and because of that, the puck carrier needs to keep their head up and be proactive to the play.
  - Coincoin 9y ago
    It's more than that, in the NHL at least. Why are scuffles around the net tolerated? They are disgraceful. Almost every game you will see someone get punched or cross checked in the face with no consequence, as long as it's after the whistle or the victim is an asshole. Which leads to my next point. Why is general assholery tolerated and even celebrated? There is a thing called sportsmanship and there is none of it in the NHL until they put someone on a stretcher. They bang their stick on the boards for 5 seconds then it's open season for the other guy. Why are fights only 5 minutes penalty? Any other sport they would get suspended for even half attempting to punch someone. The NHL and PA say it's some sort of anarchy-on-ice bullshit but we all know it's because it sells tickets and have otherwise poor players make the cut.
    - Jeremy1026 9y ago
      The majority of those pushing matches after the whistle are a continuation of the play from before it. Defender is trying to clear the front of the net, offensive player is trying to secure position to screen the goalie, get a deflection, or tuck away a rebound. When the whistle blows the players are still tangled and the pushing continues. Sometimes its the offensive player who took an extra whack or two at the puck after it was blown dead that draws the push. These hits are very superficial, they are mainly a "I saw what you did, knock it off" message. There is plenty of sportsmanship in the NHL. Almost every fight is between willing participants who discuss it first to ensure the other party isn't playing with an injury or something. Handshake lines after playoff series when you just spent the past week and a half playing the same opponent every other day. There is plenty of shit talking from the benches, but wingers will typically shoot the shit a bit when lining up for faceoffs. Why is fighting only a 5 minute penalty? Because see above about "dem da rules". Fighting has always been a part of the game, and has fallen dramatically in the past few years. Players don't tend to get head injuries from fights, and when they do its because they fell awkwardly and hit the ice with their head. The hits that are borderline dirty or overly aggressive just aren't there, knowing that you might have to put up for a fight for giving the hit. Those hits are the ones that are causing the injuries. From behind, sending your opponent face first into the boards. Lining up the big hit from across the ice. Steve Moore jumping on Tood Bertuzzi's back and driving his head into the ice. Those are the plays that have lasting affects.
- mi100hael 9y ago
  Nah, you're over thinking it. Heavy hits are perfectly legal and (for the most part) the refs aren't making mistakes or ignoring illegal behavior. Enforcers just discourage the opposing team from making those legal hits.
watwut 9y ago
I find it implausible. Ice hockey players are not the kind of dude who get scared by a bit of pain after being hit. If they would, they would not played hockey (which hurts even outside fights and gets you injuries often).

arrosenberg 9y ago

Hockey fights in 2017 aren't really comparable to what fighting in hockey used to be though. The enforcer role is all but gone, the rules around hits are more stringent and the league is far more rigorous with enforcement. I think the bigger risk in the game today is from the speed of collisions, having too much padding and high hits.

ptaipale 9y ago
And anyway, fighting is not where the injuries happen. Ugly tackles to the head are the bad thing.
- brohoolio 9y ago
  Actual the enforcers in hockey who fight have some of the worst brain damage. Bob Probert, an enforcer for the Red Wings is an example of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Probert https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Probert

santoshalper 9y ago

Hits are much less frequent in hockey (they happen several times per play in Football) and the players are much smaller, but they are moving really fast and playing on ice. I think the worst hits in Hockey would rival anything in Football, but I don't think the prevalence of CTE will be as high.

autokad 9y ago

hockey has more concussions today than the clutch and grab days of the past. this is a 2 fold reason: #1 players are moving faster now - expected #2 clutch and grab actually penalized larger players, as it took more energy to get moving again (hockey is an endurance sport). now player size is inflating. I think the football solution is to force players smaller again. One way to accomplish this is to weight pun salary caps by body weight. The sport can keep its old aspects.

dsacco 9y ago
Can you flesh out your weightclass idea of salary brackets there? I'm curious to understand how you think it would work.
soperj 9y ago
Hockey players are getting smaller, not bigger. You would have never seen guys like Martin St.Louis, Conacher, Gaudreau, Tyler Johnson, make it in the late 90s. That a guy like Kailer Yamamoto gets drafted in the first round shows that things have changed for smaller players.

Analemma_ 9y ago

> Otherwise, I always thought the concussion aspect was much less worst in the NHL than NFL, but maybe im wrong about that... Maybe, but what we're discovering is that concussions aren't the only problem: you can get CTE even from the repeated sub-concussive hits that linemen get constantly. By focusing on concussions the NFL is dodging the issue.