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I don't see avoiding frameworks is superior to using a microframework like Sinatra. The point of a good framework is it abstracts things that you have to do rep

I don't see avoiding frameworks is superior to using a microframework like Sinatra. The point of a good framework is it abstracts things that you have to do repeatedly. You can't really operate without a framework in some domains, if you aren't using an existing one, it's because you've written your own.

kristopolous 9y ago
at some point it's a debate on definition. To me, a "framework" as a strawman (and unfortunately, usually in reality) has the following features * hoses the stack trace and makes stepping through code useless and futile * introduces nearly indistinguishable vague abstract ideas that have very real differences in code that are not well-documented * changes core api and underlying functionality every few months and breaks backwards compatibility * makes code action-at-a-distance spaghetti where one task is strewn around multiple files in different directories through some mystical dance of indirection * is an order of magnitude slower while claiming to be zippy, lightweight, and fast * constrains and restricts how you can use the language and express your ideas * rewrites or suppresses core diagnostic, logging, and debugging features built into the language with their own variation (usually called something like EasyLog or SplendidDebug or some nonsense)... * shoehorns your problem into a very specific and narrow domain * introduces new configuration files and changes their formats at nearly every version * does things very naively (such as busy-polling a file to look for changes, pegging a cpu core, instead of using inotify(2)) * has marketing like a new iPhone so everyone is onboard with the hot-newness of it all * will be dead and abandoned in about 18 months. It's essentially people who don't know what they're doing trusting other people who don't know what they're doing all surrounded by mountains of hubris
gmiller123456 9y ago
>You can't really operate without a framework in some >domains, if you aren't using an existing one, it's because >you've written your own. Can you share some examples of domains where it's not feasible to operate in without a framework? I share the GP's experience in that I've never found a framework useful. I have tried some, and even had some forced upon me. But anytime I compare what the framework actually did for me, vs how much I had to fight it to do what I want, I always find I would have been better off not using it.

kristopolous 9y ago

at some point it's a debate on definition. To me, a "framework" as a strawman (and unfortunately, usually in reality) has the following features * hoses the stack trace and makes stepping through code useless and futile * introduces nearly indistinguishable vague abstract ideas that have very real differences in code that are not well-documented * changes core api and underlying functionality every few months and breaks backwards compatibility * makes code action-at-a-distance spaghetti where one task is strewn around multiple files in different directories through some mystical dance of indirection * is an order of magnitude slower while claiming to be zippy, lightweight, and fast * constrains and restricts how you can use the language and express your ideas * rewrites or suppresses core diagnostic, logging, and debugging features built into the language with their own variation (usually called something like EasyLog or SplendidDebug or some nonsense)... * shoehorns your problem into a very specific and narrow domain * introduces new configuration files and changes their formats at nearly every version * does things very naively (such as busy-polling a file to look for changes, pegging a cpu core, instead of using inotify(2)) * has marketing like a new iPhone so everyone is onboard with the hot-newness of it all * will be dead and abandoned in about 18 months. It's essentially people who don't know what they're doing trusting other people who don't know what they're doing all surrounded by mountains of hubris

gmiller123456 9y ago

>You can't really operate without a framework in some >domains, if you aren't using an existing one, it's because >you've written your own. Can you share some examples of domains where it's not feasible to operate in without a framework? I share the GP's experience in that I've never found a framework useful. I have tried some, and even had some forced upon me. But anytime I compare what the framework actually did for me, vs how much I had to fight it to do what I want, I always find I would have been better off not using it.