6 ms·

> ...person you just screwed with an overpriced ticket. This is also known as an "adult freely and willingly participating in a voluntary transaction."

by pdog 9y ago

Para2016 9y ago
Pro-scalping crowd here at HN? Well I'll be damned.
- testvox 9y ago
  Not that surprising, HN and the tech industry in general leans very liberal on economic issues.
  - Para2016 9y ago
    Overpriced middle men doesn't seem that liberal to me. I also see a generally positive attitude towards Tesla trying to direct sell to customers and fighting car dealerships. A legitimate comparison in my mind. But by volume of DV, I guess HN has some interesting minds here as well.
    - jmilloy 9y ago
      "liberal on economic issues" means people/companies are free to do whatever they want with their money and property. So artists and event-planners are free to sell tickets to scalpers, scalpers are free to sell tickets to concert-goers, concert-goers are free to buy tickets from whoever they want, and Tesla can direct sell to customers, all at whatever price they want/can.
    - rconti 9y ago
      It's not pro-scalping as much as it's pro-market, at least from what I've read in this thread.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
castis 9y ago
Sugar coat it however you like, it's greedy.
Frondo 9y ago
Scalping's a good example of how markets break down for what we want as a society. Most of us have a visceral reaction to scalpers because we want to live in a world where music and shows are a cultural experience more of us can share. Scalpers don't do that--they don't open up that experience--they insert themselves in between the real transaction, making some bank for themselves while adding no value to either party's experience. I'm sure you could say "but scalpers help determine the real price of the ticket, to someone willing to pay" ... we, as a society, don't want or need that help. If we, as a society, keep coming up with ways to thwart that (like the NiN thing mentioned above), that's a sign. Markets serve us at our leisure, not the other way around.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  It's tautological that scalpers are providing value to the people they sell tickets to (otherwise there would not be scalpers). People react to it because it violates ideas about fairness.
  - castis 9y ago
    The value here is entry to an event. The scalper does not create this value. Their service degrades this value in the form of a higher cost. The end user pays this because there are usually no other options. It's greedy reselling.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      The value the scalper provides can still be analogous to transporting some goods across a distance. They act as a middleman that changes the availability of the thing they sell. I'm not arguing in favor of scalping, I'm just saying that the good arguments against are about fairness, they aren't economic. For instance, there is always the option of not attending a concert. This is not the same things as "no other options".
      - castis 9y ago
        > The value the scalper provides can still be analogous to transporting some goods across a distance Sure, can be, but isn't. More often than not, it's moving the point of sale from one website to another with an absurd markup. If it's a scalper on the sidewalk selling tickets to a sold out show, then yes, they've physically moved the asset but created no more value to either the venue or the end user, only to themselves, so we're still talking about greed. > For instance, there is always the option of not attending a concert. This is not the same things as "no other options". The end user not going to the concert because of the ticket price means that the scalper has imposed that choice on the user.
jedberg 9y ago
Sure, they participated willingly, but they aren't happy about paying an unnecessary middleman who adds cost but provides no value. Hence the "screwing" part.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Well, that's not strictly true. By raising the price of tickets to what the market will bear, they force some people out of the marketplace, increasing availability of tickets for those who can afford them. And from the perspective of the artist and Ticketmaster, they eliminate some of the risk of tickets going unsold. Of course, it's understandably seen as very unfair (goodness knows I've missed out on shows I wanted to go to because scalpers raised the price beyond the level I was willing to pay), but I wouldn't say it has no value.
  - notlefthanded 9y ago
    I can't help but think that if an IPO went like this, and the share price ballooned after colo'd bots scooped up the cheap shares, people would be up in arms about the company leaving money on the table. Just the people in this case are the artists, who traditionally get screwed anyways. And ticketmaster doesn't have the same incentive for accurate pricing. Also there's social stigma of money being the gatekeeper to fun/cultural things.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      Why do you believe money is being left on the table? TBH, I've never really understood this argument. Unless the argument is that the artist is being forced to set a lower face value, if all the tickets are sold at face value and scalped, the artist is getting exactly what they would have budgeted for. So, are you saying the artist is being forced to sell the tickets at a price that's below what the market will bear?

> ...person you just screwed with an overpriced ticket. This is also known as an "adult freely and willingly participating in a voluntary transaction."

by pdog 9y ago

> ...person you just screwed with an overpriced ticket. This is also known as an "adult freely and willingly participating in a voluntary transaction."

Para2016 9y ago

Pro-scalping crowd here at HN? Well I'll be damned.

testvox 9y ago
Not that surprising, HN and the tech industry in general leans very liberal on economic issues.
- Para2016 9y ago
  Overpriced middle men doesn't seem that liberal to me. I also see a generally positive attitude towards Tesla trying to direct sell to customers and fighting car dealerships. A legitimate comparison in my mind. But by volume of DV, I guess HN has some interesting minds here as well.
  - jmilloy 9y ago
    "liberal on economic issues" means people/companies are free to do whatever they want with their money and property. So artists and event-planners are free to sell tickets to scalpers, scalpers are free to sell tickets to concert-goers, concert-goers are free to buy tickets from whoever they want, and Tesla can direct sell to customers, all at whatever price they want/can.
  - rconti 9y ago
    It's not pro-scalping as much as it's pro-market, at least from what I've read in this thread.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

castis 9y ago

Sugar coat it however you like, it's greedy.

Frondo 9y ago

Scalping's a good example of how markets break down for what we want as a society. Most of us have a visceral reaction to scalpers because we want to live in a world where music and shows are a cultural experience more of us can share. Scalpers don't do that--they don't open up that experience--they insert themselves in between the real transaction, making some bank for themselves while adding no value to either party's experience. I'm sure you could say "but scalpers help determine the real price of the ticket, to someone willing to pay" ... we, as a society, don't want or need that help. If we, as a society, keep coming up with ways to thwart that (like the NiN thing mentioned above), that's a sign. Markets serve us at our leisure, not the other way around.

maxerickson 9y ago
It's tautological that scalpers are providing value to the people they sell tickets to (otherwise there would not be scalpers). People react to it because it violates ideas about fairness.
- castis 9y ago
  The value here is entry to an event. The scalper does not create this value. Their service degrades this value in the form of a higher cost. The end user pays this because there are usually no other options. It's greedy reselling.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    The value the scalper provides can still be analogous to transporting some goods across a distance. They act as a middleman that changes the availability of the thing they sell. I'm not arguing in favor of scalping, I'm just saying that the good arguments against are about fairness, they aren't economic. For instance, there is always the option of not attending a concert. This is not the same things as "no other options".
    - castis 9y ago
      > The value the scalper provides can still be analogous to transporting some goods across a distance Sure, can be, but isn't. More often than not, it's moving the point of sale from one website to another with an absurd markup. If it's a scalper on the sidewalk selling tickets to a sold out show, then yes, they've physically moved the asset but created no more value to either the venue or the end user, only to themselves, so we're still talking about greed. > For instance, there is always the option of not attending a concert. This is not the same things as "no other options". The end user not going to the concert because of the ticket price means that the scalper has imposed that choice on the user.

jedberg 9y ago

Sure, they participated willingly, but they aren't happy about paying an unnecessary middleman who adds cost but provides no value. Hence the "screwing" part.

zzalpha 9y ago
Well, that's not strictly true. By raising the price of tickets to what the market will bear, they force some people out of the marketplace, increasing availability of tickets for those who can afford them. And from the perspective of the artist and Ticketmaster, they eliminate some of the risk of tickets going unsold. Of course, it's understandably seen as very unfair (goodness knows I've missed out on shows I wanted to go to because scalpers raised the price beyond the level I was willing to pay), but I wouldn't say it has no value.
- notlefthanded 9y ago
  I can't help but think that if an IPO went like this, and the share price ballooned after colo'd bots scooped up the cheap shares, people would be up in arms about the company leaving money on the table. Just the people in this case are the artists, who traditionally get screwed anyways. And ticketmaster doesn't have the same incentive for accurate pricing. Also there's social stigma of money being the gatekeeper to fun/cultural things.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Why do you believe money is being left on the table? TBH, I've never really understood this argument. Unless the argument is that the artist is being forced to set a lower face value, if all the tickets are sold at face value and scalped, the artist is getting exactly what they would have budgeted for. So, are you saying the artist is being forced to sell the tickets at a price that's below what the market will bear?