6 ms·

The story of the Jewish codebreakers who helped win the war

54 points by js2 9y ago

45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
What an interesting story and credits those who may be missing from the general narrative of codebreakers in WW2. The impact of breaking NAZI codes and learning about the murder of your people -- without being able to act -- is a terrifying position for any human to be in.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dm319 9y ago
I sit uncomfortably with the article's emphasis on a specific ethnicity. Great things were done at Bletchley during the war, and I think there is a good argument that diversity (or should we say lack of anti-diversity?) was helpful. This is a great documentary on the lorenz cipher[1][2] (sadly fairly garbled to avoid it being taken down - though doesn't seem like you can buy it either), which was a more secure encryption method than enigma and didn't require an operator. It was thought to be unbreakable by Nazi high command, and the breaking of it has only recently been declassified. The documentary points out the diversity at Bletchley - race, country, gender, disability and sexual orientation, which was quite the opposite to the Nazi's intelligence employment requirements. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0l8aAOiJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0l8aAOiJI [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l9j0v http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l9j0v
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  I don't understand your discomfort; the news outlet is specifically for Jewish people so it's quite understandable they'd focus on co-nationals. Most people's stereotype of Bletchley Park is 'Alan Turing and a bunch of other English people', not least due to historical secretiveness on the bart of the UK government. I was interested to learn that some Jewish scientists were fighting the war in the UK, in addition to the better-known ones who worked on the atomic bomb. Thanks for the suggestion on the documentary.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  It's not about the ethnicity, it was about people who were reading secret Nazi massages about mass murder of their own people, quite possibly their own relatives and not been able to talk to anyone outside about it .
  - vasilipupkin 9y ago
    exactly
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  why are you uncomfortable? the emphasis is relevant because "Their role in codebreaking and in our “signals intelligence” mission was out of all proportion to the size of the Jewish community in Britain at the time" and because it is an article in the Jewish Chronicle
- empath75 9y ago
  It's an article in the Jewish Chronicle, what do you want them to write about?
- willvarfar 9y ago
  It is an article in The Jewish Cronicle, commemorating the passing of a Jewish codebreaker. As the article says, many codebreakers were Jewish and many were Zionist, including Newman and Good and others who did so much to break the Lorenz cipher (codenamed Tunny at Bletchley). The article mentions Churchill's letters published in The Jewish Cronicle, based on Ultra codebreaks, and mentions modern day cooperation with Israeli sigint in the Middle East. There were lots of nationalities and ethnicities involved at Bletchley an the big effort. A lot has been written about the American contribution, the Polish contribution and so on. Why not also the Jewish contribution? It doesn't detract from the supreme effort and parts all played at Bletchley?
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  One reason to remember the ethnicity of the people contributing to the war effort is that Nazi propaganda was that the "Jewish race" was inferior, and it was the German destiny to conquer all such "inferior races". Well, it turns out that many of these supposedly inferior Jews were instrumental in defeating the allegedly superior Nazis, and whose achievements often equaled or exceeded those of the latter. Elsewhere in this thread someone brought up the Jewish scientists that were key to the Manhattan Project, which helped to defeat another supposedly superior "race": the Japanese. But there were many other brilliant Jewish scientists -- perhaps most famously Albert Einstein -- but the history of science is replete with Jewish contributions. The Nazis (and, incidentally, the Soviets) scorned what they called "Jewish Science", fired Jewish scientists, exiled them, outright killed them or otherwise made their work impossible, and ignored their contributions. What was the result? Well, it certainly didn't help the Nazis. Those Jews that managed to escape or went in to exile often went on to join the fight against the Nazis, and it was the enemies of the Nazis (who welcomed and embraced the Jews -- though, arguably not nearly enough) benefited from their discoveries and their help. This might seem not worth mentioning, academic, or of historical interest only. You might think it's obvious that there were brilliant Jewish scientists, as there were brillian scientists of other ethnicities. But in fact if you follow the news today, there are still people who believe very strongly in Nazi propaganda and in racist rhetoric. They do actually believe that it is the "white race" that is superior and others are inferior. White nationalism, white supremacy, and other racist/nationalist ideologies are unfortunately alive and well, and have made a resurgence with the rise of the radical right not only in the United States, but in many other parts of the world. One of the ways to counter such pernicious ideologies is to point out how they are wrong, and it's hard to imagine how that can be done without talking about the ethnicities which these ideologies claim to be inferior. That doesn't mean that one must take up the position that it is the Jews that are superior. Every ethnicity has something special and valuable to contribute to humanity. None is superior and none is inferior. Each ethnicity should recognize, respect, and celebrate their own accomplishments as well as those of others. This is the way to counter exclusivism, discrimination, hatred, and bigotry, and is what multiculturalism is about.
- MaymayMaster 9y ago
  It's like you're intentionally trying to be uncomfortable by the fact that it mentions Jewish people. It's The Jewish Chronicle, for crying out loud.
arcanus 9y ago
Jewish scientists were instrumental in the United States Manhattan project, where notable scientists such as Richard Feynman, Robert Oppenheimer, Hans Bethe, etc., made significant contributions to the discovery of the fission bomb.
- geodel 9y ago
  And contributed to Bombing of Hiroshima or that point we blame politicians, military-industrial complex etc?
  - balls187 9y ago
    The same bombing of Hiroshima that lead to the end of the Second Sino-Japanese war which claimed 17 million chinese civilian lives at the hands of the Japanase military?
  - Koshkin 9y ago
    Weapons don't kill people, people do.
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    "It is with appreciation and gratefulness that I accept from you this scroll for the Los Alamos Laboratory, and for the men and women whose work and whose hearts have made it. It is our hope that in years to come we may look at the scroll and all that it signifies, with pride. Today that pride must be tempered by a profound concern. If atomic bombs are to be added as new weapons to the arsenals of a warring world, or to the arsenals of the nations preparing for war, then the time will come when mankind will curse the names of Los Alamos and Hiroshima. The people of this world must unite or they will perish. This war that has ravaged so much of the earth, has written these words. The atomic bomb has spelled them out for all men to understand. Other men have spoken them in other times, and of other wars, of other weapons. They have not prevailed. There are some misled by a false sense of human history, who hold that they will not prevail today. It is not for us to believe that. By our minds we are committed, committed to a world united, before the common peril, in law and in humanity." J. Robert Oppenheimer, Acceptance Speech, Army-Navy "Excellence" Award (16 November 1945)
rublev 9y ago
.
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  what is ?
  - Koshkin 9y ago
    If "propaganda" means "spreading lies", that's not it. And, in general, there is nothing wrong with drawing attention to the role played by a particular category of people. If anything, this is information. If it was the Jews who have given us so many great people, then this is only a reason to try to understand why - by studying their history, culture, personal circumstances, etc.
Zaheer 9y ago
>Today, our strong partnership with our Israeli counterparts in signals intelligence is protecting people from terrorism as I write. This article celebrates the intelligence / defense community which after just coming back from a trip to Israel & Palestine I feel obliged to add an asterisk to. What goes on in Israel under the pretense of security is horrifying to say the least. I don't mean to undermine the great accomplishments of the codebreakers. But I do want to address the modern context this article mentions. Information on US-Israeli security coordination and how it transpires into police brutality in the U.S: https://deadlyexchange.org/ https://deadlyexchange.org/ General Israel-Palestine 101: https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101/ https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict...
- Zaheer 9y ago
  If you're down-voting me, please explain why.
yesbabyyes 9y ago
Interesting, I had no idea about this. I lament that this story went from #1 to #43 in no time; what happened?
Overtonwindow 9y ago
On a related note, if you ever find yourself near the south of Baltimore, the National Cryptologic Museum at NSA is free, open to the public, and absolutely fascinating.

54 points by js2 9y ago

What an interesting story and credits those who may be missing from the general narrative of codebreakers in WW2. The impact of breaking NAZI codes and learning about the murder of your people -- without being able to act -- is a terrifying position for any human to be in.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dm319 9y ago

I sit uncomfortably with the article's emphasis on a specific ethnicity. Great things were done at Bletchley during the war, and I think there is a good argument that diversity (or should we say lack of anti-diversity?) was helpful. This is a great documentary on the lorenz cipher[1][2] (sadly fairly garbled to avoid it being taken down - though doesn't seem like you can buy it either), which was a more secure encryption method than enigma and didn't require an operator. It was thought to be unbreakable by Nazi high command, and the breaking of it has only recently been declassified. The documentary points out the diversity at Bletchley - race, country, gender, disability and sexual orientation, which was quite the opposite to the Nazi's intelligence employment requirements. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0l8aAOiJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0l8aAOiJI [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l9j0v http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00l9j0v

anigbrowl 9y ago
I don't understand your discomfort; the news outlet is specifically for Jewish people so it's quite understandable they'd focus on co-nationals. Most people's stereotype of Bletchley Park is 'Alan Turing and a bunch of other English people', not least due to historical secretiveness on the bart of the UK government. I was interested to learn that some Jewish scientists were fighting the war in the UK, in addition to the better-known ones who worked on the atomic bomb. Thanks for the suggestion on the documentary.
myth_drannon 9y ago
It's not about the ethnicity, it was about people who were reading secret Nazi massages about mass murder of their own people, quite possibly their own relatives and not been able to talk to anyone outside about it .
- vasilipupkin 9y ago
  exactly
vasilipupkin 9y ago
why are you uncomfortable? the emphasis is relevant because "Their role in codebreaking and in our “signals intelligence” mission was out of all proportion to the size of the Jewish community in Britain at the time" and because it is an article in the Jewish Chronicle
empath75 9y ago
It's an article in the Jewish Chronicle, what do you want them to write about?
willvarfar 9y ago
It is an article in The Jewish Cronicle, commemorating the passing of a Jewish codebreaker. As the article says, many codebreakers were Jewish and many were Zionist, including Newman and Good and others who did so much to break the Lorenz cipher (codenamed Tunny at Bletchley). The article mentions Churchill's letters published in The Jewish Cronicle, based on Ultra codebreaks, and mentions modern day cooperation with Israeli sigint in the Middle East. There were lots of nationalities and ethnicities involved at Bletchley an the big effort. A lot has been written about the American contribution, the Polish contribution and so on. Why not also the Jewish contribution? It doesn't detract from the supreme effort and parts all played at Bletchley?
pmoriarty 9y ago
One reason to remember the ethnicity of the people contributing to the war effort is that Nazi propaganda was that the "Jewish race" was inferior, and it was the German destiny to conquer all such "inferior races". Well, it turns out that many of these supposedly inferior Jews were instrumental in defeating the allegedly superior Nazis, and whose achievements often equaled or exceeded those of the latter. Elsewhere in this thread someone brought up the Jewish scientists that were key to the Manhattan Project, which helped to defeat another supposedly superior "race": the Japanese. But there were many other brilliant Jewish scientists -- perhaps most famously Albert Einstein -- but the history of science is replete with Jewish contributions. The Nazis (and, incidentally, the Soviets) scorned what they called "Jewish Science", fired Jewish scientists, exiled them, outright killed them or otherwise made their work impossible, and ignored their contributions. What was the result? Well, it certainly didn't help the Nazis. Those Jews that managed to escape or went in to exile often went on to join the fight against the Nazis, and it was the enemies of the Nazis (who welcomed and embraced the Jews -- though, arguably not nearly enough) benefited from their discoveries and their help. This might seem not worth mentioning, academic, or of historical interest only. You might think it's obvious that there were brilliant Jewish scientists, as there were brillian scientists of other ethnicities. But in fact if you follow the news today, there are still people who believe very strongly in Nazi propaganda and in racist rhetoric. They do actually believe that it is the "white race" that is superior and others are inferior. White nationalism, white supremacy, and other racist/nationalist ideologies are unfortunately alive and well, and have made a resurgence with the rise of the radical right not only in the United States, but in many other parts of the world. One of the ways to counter such pernicious ideologies is to point out how they are wrong, and it's hard to imagine how that can be done without talking about the ethnicities which these ideologies claim to be inferior. That doesn't mean that one must take up the position that it is the Jews that are superior. Every ethnicity has something special and valuable to contribute to humanity. None is superior and none is inferior. Each ethnicity should recognize, respect, and celebrate their own accomplishments as well as those of others. This is the way to counter exclusivism, discrimination, hatred, and bigotry, and is what multiculturalism is about.
MaymayMaster 9y ago
It's like you're intentionally trying to be uncomfortable by the fact that it mentions Jewish people. It's The Jewish Chronicle, for crying out loud.

arcanus 9y ago

Jewish scientists were instrumental in the United States Manhattan project, where notable scientists such as Richard Feynman, Robert Oppenheimer, Hans Bethe, etc., made significant contributions to the discovery of the fission bomb.

geodel 9y ago
And contributed to Bombing of Hiroshima or that point we blame politicians, military-industrial complex etc?
- balls187 9y ago
  The same bombing of Hiroshima that lead to the end of the Second Sino-Japanese war which claimed 17 million chinese civilian lives at the hands of the Japanase military?
- Koshkin 9y ago
  Weapons don't kill people, people do.
- metaphorm 9y ago
  "It is with appreciation and gratefulness that I accept from you this scroll for the Los Alamos Laboratory, and for the men and women whose work and whose hearts have made it. It is our hope that in years to come we may look at the scroll and all that it signifies, with pride. Today that pride must be tempered by a profound concern. If atomic bombs are to be added as new weapons to the arsenals of a warring world, or to the arsenals of the nations preparing for war, then the time will come when mankind will curse the names of Los Alamos and Hiroshima. The people of this world must unite or they will perish. This war that has ravaged so much of the earth, has written these words. The atomic bomb has spelled them out for all men to understand. Other men have spoken them in other times, and of other wars, of other weapons. They have not prevailed. There are some misled by a false sense of human history, who hold that they will not prevail today. It is not for us to believe that. By our minds we are committed, committed to a world united, before the common peril, in law and in humanity." J. Robert Oppenheimer, Acceptance Speech, Army-Navy "Excellence" Award (16 November 1945)

rublev 9y ago

vasilipupkin 9y ago
what is ?
- Koshkin 9y ago
  If "propaganda" means "spreading lies", that's not it. And, in general, there is nothing wrong with drawing attention to the role played by a particular category of people. If anything, this is information. If it was the Jews who have given us so many great people, then this is only a reason to try to understand why - by studying their history, culture, personal circumstances, etc.

Zaheer 9y ago

>Today, our strong partnership with our Israeli counterparts in signals intelligence is protecting people from terrorism as I write. This article celebrates the intelligence / defense community which after just coming back from a trip to Israel & Palestine I feel obliged to add an asterisk to. What goes on in Israel under the pretense of security is horrifying to say the least. I don't mean to undermine the great accomplishments of the codebreakers. But I do want to address the modern context this article mentions. Information on US-Israeli security coordination and how it transpires into police brutality in the U.S: https://deadlyexchange.org/ https://deadlyexchange.org/ General Israel-Palestine 101: https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101/ https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/israeli-palestinian-conflict...

Zaheer 9y ago
If you're down-voting me, please explain why.

yesbabyyes 9y ago

Interesting, I had no idea about this. I lament that this story went from #1 to #43 in no time; what happened?

Overtonwindow 9y ago

On a related note, if you ever find yourself near the south of Baltimore, the National Cryptologic Museum at NSA is free, open to the public, and absolutely fascinating.