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No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusiv

No scheme can eliminate the evils 100%. However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path and with good momentum.

jitix 9y ago
yeah I think thats the best outcome of the whole exercise. I went to India in the middle of that shitstorm and it was really painful to travel around. Currency exchanges/banks only gave 2000 rs notes the nobody wanted to accept.
ShirsenduK 9y ago
GDP is down from 7.2 to 5.7. Those roadside merchants will never pay tax as they don't make enough. Internet connectivity/density is a joke in this country. Everyone is using cash again and you have to still pay bribes. Its time we tell the Emperor; The Emperor has no clothes!
rm2889 9y ago
I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded? Through our hard-earned tax money. Who do you think the debtors will now vote for in the next election cycle? The current ruling political party ofcourse. Finally, there are a lot of disadvantages for being on a completely centralized digital payment platform from an individual liberty point of view. Imagine that a significant portion of your net worth is just a number stored in a "secure database" which falls under the jurisdiction of some government. Now image that you vocally disagree with the government's policies enough for the government to start taking notice. It becomes very very easy for the government to shut you up - all they have to do is strongarm the bank to freeze that number. Its not as hypothetical as it sounds as the Indian government has done this before. A large portion of black money was deemed to be held up by the bureaucracy - bribes paid by private individuals and corporations to government employees and politicians. Had demonetization been done along with a hiring freeze (and subsequent trimming down) of the bureaucracy, I'd have been more certain that the motives behind demonetization were to root out corruption. However, the bureaucracy is now larger and more powerful than ever under this government. Thus, the incentives to seek bribes still exits because of this power imbalance between the powerful bureaucrats and relatively week individuals.
- Retric 9y ago
  Governments have so much leverage they don't need to be efficient to be a huge net benefit. Consider the cost to build and maintain a road network vs. the benefits it brings. PS: Further, it's not a question of collecting more money from everyone it's a question of collecting the same money from everyone which is a benefit even if you end up burning the extra money.
  - splintercell 9y ago
    > Governments have so much leverage they don't need to be efficient to be a huge net benefit. But aren't you just saying that when you have $1 Billion then paying $500k more to a contractor doesn't seem that bad based on the net benefit it would bring to have a dream home. But imagine if this was a charity (something which govt is, if we look at it a certain way), that inefficiency means more people could have benefited out of it.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Efficiency gain's are clearly beneficial. My point is governments can be effective in providing roads and common defense etc without being efficient. India is a case in point, they have enough infrastructure to allow for rapid growth even with a highly corrupt government. While they could do a better job, the increasing standard of living allows for ever improving government services even without increasing efficiency. Further, as standers keep rising the pressure and ability to reduce corruption increases both because governments can directly pay more and because better options show up outside of government. PS: In the US and I suspect most other countries you can reduce your tax burden by donating just fine. So, taxes are effectively a non issue in terms of charitable donations. Thus tax evasion is simply money people are keeping for personal use.
- virtuabhi 9y ago
  > Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means Can be said of 99% governments in the world.
paapi__gudiya 9y ago
Road-side merchants live hand-to-mouth and would anyways not contribute to tax because their incomes are so low. Every study out there suggests that demonetisation was a big blunder, causing a very severe blow to the Indian economy, including the death of 150+ civilians. The real motive for demonetisation was to legitimize the black money of the ruling party BJP and eliminate black money of opposition parties.
- sabujp 9y ago
  This, there's so much corruption its ridiculous.
- harigov 9y ago
  If they start using banks and digital payments, one can build credit score and issue loans to them, so they can develop their business. That is not possible today.
  - tryingagainbro 9y ago
    Loans for what? Some people in many fields should NOT get a loan. It will make matter worse...broke and indebted to a bank. Not everyone is gonna make a $1 million a year.
    - virtuabhi 9y ago
      Women from rural areas can start a small business with a loan of 1-5 lakhs INR (~10k $). You should read more. Here is one recommendation http://a.co/fAC8YSQ http://a.co/fAC8YSQ
signal11 9y ago
> However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. The evidence is that it had a strong negative effect. Also, anecdotally, the roadside merchants who used to accept PayTM for the duration while currency supply was squeezed, have now gone back to cash[1] However PayTM's CEO is now buying a house in the poshest part of New Delhi, so I'm sure it wasn't all bad for him. [1] http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/cash-usage-india-post-demonetization/ http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/cash-usage-india-post-demone... ... "March data from RBI poured cold water on proponents of digital payment. The volume of overall digital transactions, which had increased by 42 percent from 672 million in November to 958 million in December 2016, declined by 20 percent to 763 million in February 2017."
- amrrs 9y ago
  And he preordered a Tesla too. While that's not the concern. Calling out 'Roadside merchants accepting Paytm' as a Positive impact on economy is more of anecdotal than data driven. This nevertheless must have increased Paytm's market penetration and cash flow but a lot of road side vendors just had to sit in their homes for days due to unavailability of cash which is their primary mode of purchasing and their customers too.
Bhilai 9y ago
> Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. Can you provide a source on this ?
kamaal 9y ago
>>However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Overall it has permanently destroyed trust in governments actions. Most big money people money I know today trust only two things to park their money: Gold and Real estate. Worsening the home affordability problem. >>Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. Their business was destroyed so badly that they had to use digital wallets just to fill their stomachs. >>All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. They were temporarily. They are back to being normal again. >>Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path and with good momentum. Some people even say the current government doesn't even have a clue what it is doing, and it will take somebody prudent next time to fix the mess created currently.

jitix 9y ago

yeah I think thats the best outcome of the whole exercise. I went to India in the middle of that shitstorm and it was really painful to travel around. Currency exchanges/banks only gave 2000 rs notes the nobody wanted to accept.

ShirsenduK 9y ago

GDP is down from 7.2 to 5.7. Those roadside merchants will never pay tax as they don't make enough. Internet connectivity/density is a joke in this country. Everyone is using cash again and you have to still pay bribes. Its time we tell the Emperor; The Emperor has no clothes!

rm2889 9y ago

I'm not sure. Historically, Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means (corruption, buying votes etc). Saying "yes but this government is different" also doesn't hold water when you look at the massive farm loan waivers that were just granted, and more waivers are on their way. How do you think the waivers were funded? Through our hard-earned tax money. Who do you think the debtors will now vote for in the next election cycle? The current ruling political party ofcourse. Finally, there are a lot of disadvantages for being on a completely centralized digital payment platform from an individual liberty point of view. Imagine that a significant portion of your net worth is just a number stored in a "secure database" which falls under the jurisdiction of some government. Now image that you vocally disagree with the government's policies enough for the government to start taking notice. It becomes very very easy for the government to shut you up - all they have to do is strongarm the bank to freeze that number. Its not as hypothetical as it sounds as the Indian government has done this before. A large portion of black money was deemed to be held up by the bureaucracy - bribes paid by private individuals and corporations to government employees and politicians. Had demonetization been done along with a hiring freeze (and subsequent trimming down) of the bureaucracy, I'd have been more certain that the motives behind demonetization were to root out corruption. However, the bureaucracy is now larger and more powerful than ever under this government. Thus, the incentives to seek bribes still exits because of this power imbalance between the powerful bureaucrats and relatively week individuals.

Retric 9y ago
Governments have so much leverage they don't need to be efficient to be a huge net benefit. Consider the cost to build and maintain a road network vs. the benefits it brings. PS: Further, it's not a question of collecting more money from everyone it's a question of collecting the same money from everyone which is a benefit even if you end up burning the extra money.
- splintercell 9y ago
  > Governments have so much leverage they don't need to be efficient to be a huge net benefit. But aren't you just saying that when you have $1 Billion then paying $500k more to a contractor doesn't seem that bad based on the net benefit it would bring to have a dream home. But imagine if this was a charity (something which govt is, if we look at it a certain way), that inefficiency means more people could have benefited out of it.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Efficiency gain's are clearly beneficial. My point is governments can be effective in providing roads and common defense etc without being efficient. India is a case in point, they have enough infrastructure to allow for rapid growth even with a highly corrupt government. While they could do a better job, the increasing standard of living allows for ever improving government services even without increasing efficiency. Further, as standers keep rising the pressure and ability to reduce corruption increases both because governments can directly pay more and because better options show up outside of government. PS: In the US and I suspect most other countries you can reduce your tax burden by donating just fine. So, taxes are effectively a non issue in terms of charitable donations. Thus tax evasion is simply money people are keeping for personal use.
virtuabhi 9y ago
> Indian governments have been most undeserving of our taxes simply because they've misspent it and/or misdirected it to achieve their own means Can be said of 99% governments in the world.

paapi__gudiya 9y ago

Road-side merchants live hand-to-mouth and would anyways not contribute to tax because their incomes are so low. Every study out there suggests that demonetisation was a big blunder, causing a very severe blow to the Indian economy, including the death of 150+ civilians. The real motive for demonetisation was to legitimize the black money of the ruling party BJP and eliminate black money of opposition parties.

sabujp 9y ago
This, there's so much corruption its ridiculous.
harigov 9y ago
If they start using banks and digital payments, one can build credit score and issue loans to them, so they can develop their business. That is not possible today.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  Loans for what? Some people in many fields should NOT get a loan. It will make matter worse...broke and indebted to a bank. Not everyone is gonna make a $1 million a year.
  - virtuabhi 9y ago
    Women from rural areas can start a small business with a loan of 1-5 lakhs INR (~10k $). You should read more. Here is one recommendation http://a.co/fAC8YSQ http://a.co/fAC8YSQ

signal11 9y ago

> However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. The evidence is that it had a strong negative effect. Also, anecdotally, the roadside merchants who used to accept PayTM for the duration while currency supply was squeezed, have now gone back to cash[1] However PayTM's CEO is now buying a house in the poshest part of New Delhi, so I'm sure it wasn't all bad for him. [1] http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/cash-usage-india-post-demonetization/ http://www.pymnts.com/cash/2017/cash-usage-india-post-demone... ... "March data from RBI poured cold water on proponents of digital payment. The volume of overall digital transactions, which had increased by 42 percent from 672 million in November to 958 million in December 2016, declined by 20 percent to 763 million in February 2017."

amrrs 9y ago
And he preordered a Tesla too. While that's not the concern. Calling out 'Roadside merchants accepting Paytm' as a Positive impact on economy is more of anecdotal than data driven. This nevertheless must have increased Paytm's market penetration and cash flow but a lot of road side vendors just had to sit in their homes for days due to unavailability of cash which is their primary mode of purchasing and their customers too.

Bhilai 9y ago

> Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. Can you provide a source on this ?

kamaal 9y ago

>>However, overall it had pretty strong positive impact on economy. Overall it has permanently destroyed trust in governments actions. Most big money people money I know today trust only two things to park their money: Gold and Real estate. Worsening the home affordability problem. >>Many of the roadside merchants who used to be exclusively cash only, have started accepting dizital payments. Their business was destroyed so badly that they had to use digital wallets just to fill their stomachs. >>All those on-record transactions are now part of formal banking system, instead of earlier don't-bother-about-tax approach. They were temporarily. They are back to being normal again. >>Combine this with the recent roll out of GST, we are on a very progressive path and with good momentum. Some people even say the current government doesn't even have a clue what it is doing, and it will take somebody prudent next time to fix the mess created currently.