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You just called WebKit a twisted mess. I asked you for examples. Looks like you don’t have any. Like I said, WebKit uses threads and it’s great. Maybe some day

You just called WebKit a twisted mess. I asked you for examples. Looks like you don’t have any. Like I said, WebKit uses threads and it’s great. Maybe some day you will also learn to use threads.

deleted 9y ago
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Jtsummers 9y ago
coldtea literally never said that WebKit was a twisted mess. robertwhiuk, responding to you, referenced using "twisted mess" pizlonator: I think it would be weird if objects were thread- restricted by default. Concurrency is most fun when it's easy for a thread to access an object it wants. robertwhiuk: You say fun, but what you mean is twisted mess. No reference yet to WebKit until your response: WebKit uses threads. WebKit is not a twisted mess. coldtea chimed in with this: WebKit needs tons of extra effort to keep it from being a twisted mess precisely because it uses threads. What is that "extra effort"? Discipline, care, good work. coldtea does not call WebKit a twisted mess. In fact, they seem to be saying the opposite. That it is not a twisted mess despite using threads. You have some good points in this discussion, generally. But you should at least be honest in your characterization of other people's comments. Maybe some day you will also learn to use threads. Maybe someday you will also learn reading comprehension.
- pizlonator 9y ago
  coldtea was unable to come up with a single example of where WebKit is a twisted mess or even needs effort to avoid becoming one. No matter what kinds of semantics you throw at this, I think it’s the case that these arguments against threads lack basis.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >coldtea was unable to come up with a single example of where WebKit is a twisted mess That's because coldtea (me) never said it IS a twisted mess. What I said is that with threads, WebKit (and any program for that matter) needs extra effort to not be a twisted mess. Exactly what the parent explained again, and you don't seem to have got even this second time. Why that is the case (in other words, why parallel programming with threads is harder and requires more effort than without), is CS 101. Some reasons? Synchronization and scheduling access to resources. Race conditions -- data Races, deadlocks, etc. Starvation. Balancing the number of threads (diminishing returns). Locking subtleties. VM/state/etc overhead of threading. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find seasoned programmers that would disagree that threads are problematic and require extra caution. Heck: "Although threads seem to be a small step from sequential computation, in fact, they represent a huge step. They discard the most essential and appealing properties of sequential computation: understandability, predictability, and determinism. Threads, as a model of computation, are wildly nondeterministic, and the job of the programmer becomes one of pruning that nondeterminism" -- https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-1.pdf
    - pizlonator 9y ago
      You won’t weasel out on this that easily. You still have not provided anything other than the usual BS reasons for why threads require extra effort. You know, drawing stuff to the screen also requires effort. As does file I/O. It’s computing - people get things wrong. The interesting question is: are threads so unusual in this regard that your whining makes any sense? We have lots of threads but except when we are in the middle of something big and concurrency related like concurrent GC, we have very few bugs of the sort you describe. Most of the bugs that bother me right now are in the compiler and runtime and they are not concurrency bugs at all. It’s true that if someone is deliberately trying to increase concurrency, they will fix some concurrency bugs along the way just like a person writing compiler phases will fix compiler bugs alone the way. We haven’t given up on compilers just because they are might have bugs. Finally, you said: “WebKit needs tons of extra effort to keep it from being a twisted mess precisely because it uses threads.” You seem to have now significantly walked back from this statement since all you can come up with are reasons why threads are hard that are not related to WebKit or any specific software package. Sounds like maybe you just don’t know how to use threads so you spread FUD to avoid having to learn them.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >What is that "extra effort"? Discipline, care, good work. coldtea does not call WebKit a twisted mess. In fact, they seem to be saying the opposite. That it is not a twisted mess despite using threads. Exactly, thanks.

You just called WebKit a twisted mess. I asked you for examples. Looks like you don’t have any. Like I said, WebKit uses threads and it’s great. Maybe some day you will also learn to use threads.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Jtsummers 9y ago

coldtea literally never said that WebKit was a twisted mess. robertwhiuk, responding to you, referenced using "twisted mess" pizlonator: I think it would be weird if objects were thread- restricted by default. Concurrency is most fun when it's easy for a thread to access an object it wants. robertwhiuk: You say fun, but what you mean is twisted mess. No reference yet to WebKit until your response: WebKit uses threads. WebKit is not a twisted mess. coldtea chimed in with this: WebKit needs tons of extra effort to keep it from being a twisted mess precisely because it uses threads. What is that "extra effort"? Discipline, care, good work. coldtea does not call WebKit a twisted mess. In fact, they seem to be saying the opposite. That it is not a twisted mess despite using threads. You have some good points in this discussion, generally. But you should at least be honest in your characterization of other people's comments. Maybe some day you will also learn to use threads. Maybe someday you will also learn reading comprehension.

pizlonator 9y ago
coldtea was unable to come up with a single example of where WebKit is a twisted mess or even needs effort to avoid becoming one. No matter what kinds of semantics you throw at this, I think it’s the case that these arguments against threads lack basis.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >coldtea was unable to come up with a single example of where WebKit is a twisted mess That's because coldtea (me) never said it IS a twisted mess. What I said is that with threads, WebKit (and any program for that matter) needs extra effort to not be a twisted mess. Exactly what the parent explained again, and you don't seem to have got even this second time. Why that is the case (in other words, why parallel programming with threads is harder and requires more effort than without), is CS 101. Some reasons? Synchronization and scheduling access to resources. Race conditions -- data Races, deadlocks, etc. Starvation. Balancing the number of threads (diminishing returns). Locking subtleties. VM/state/etc overhead of threading. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find seasoned programmers that would disagree that threads are problematic and require extra caution. Heck: "Although threads seem to be a small step from sequential computation, in fact, they represent a huge step. They discard the most essential and appealing properties of sequential computation: understandability, predictability, and determinism. Threads, as a model of computation, are wildly nondeterministic, and the job of the programmer becomes one of pruning that nondeterminism" -- https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2006/EECS-2006-1.pdf
  - pizlonator 9y ago
    You won’t weasel out on this that easily. You still have not provided anything other than the usual BS reasons for why threads require extra effort. You know, drawing stuff to the screen also requires effort. As does file I/O. It’s computing - people get things wrong. The interesting question is: are threads so unusual in this regard that your whining makes any sense? We have lots of threads but except when we are in the middle of something big and concurrency related like concurrent GC, we have very few bugs of the sort you describe. Most of the bugs that bother me right now are in the compiler and runtime and they are not concurrency bugs at all. It’s true that if someone is deliberately trying to increase concurrency, they will fix some concurrency bugs along the way just like a person writing compiler phases will fix compiler bugs alone the way. We haven’t given up on compilers just because they are might have bugs. Finally, you said: “WebKit needs tons of extra effort to keep it from being a twisted mess precisely because it uses threads.” You seem to have now significantly walked back from this statement since all you can come up with are reasons why threads are hard that are not related to WebKit or any specific software package. Sounds like maybe you just don’t know how to use threads so you spread FUD to avoid having to learn them.
coldtea 9y ago
>What is that "extra effort"? Discipline, care, good work. coldtea does not call WebKit a twisted mess. In fact, they seem to be saying the opposite. That it is not a twisted mess despite using threads. Exactly, thanks.