4 ms·

"But a $12,000 a year per adult basic income is another matter. The Roosevelt paper finds that paying for it would require increasing household tax revenue by 1

"But a $12,000 a year per adult basic income is another matter. The Roosevelt paper finds that paying for it would require increasing household tax revenue by 120 percent — a more than doubling. To do that, it assumes that all but the poorest 40 percent pay more in taxes. The middle quintile (households with an income between $48,300 and $85,600, per the Tax Policy Center) would see their average tax rate go from 14 percent to 25 percent; the top one percent would see its average tax rate go from 32.9 percent to 67.9 percent." Well, this idea is dead in the water then.

norea-armozel 9y ago
Yeah, more likely the rich would just self-fund fascist paramilitaries to keep "the poors" in line like they've always done.
- lawless123 9y ago
  We'll add a tax on private armies first.
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    The rich will make their politicians add a tax so that the middle class to pay for the armies that keep themselves in line.
- pyroinferno 9y ago
  It's not just "the rich" that wouldn't want this. Do the simple math, if I make 100k a year, which is middle class in most of the US, I would be paying >25% in taxes, which would be at least over 25k. It's a heavy burden to the middle class, and the people it really only benefits are the ones in poverty.
- norea-armozel 9y ago
  It's weird how my comment really struck the nerve that it did since it's partly in jest. But I will say this much, historically the rich have always favored military solutions rather than economic (or social) ones in dealing with class warfare. If the rich of today want to take a page out of history, they should be more like Otto von Bismarck and pay off the poor and disenfranchised. Meaning that some kind of reformed and expansive welfare state is something that's needed more than Uberizing every facet of life (the most recent one that's really annoyed me is the monetization of game mods by Bethesda; it's a hobby, not a job.). Whether or not that includes basic income remains to be seen, but the fact is all the opposition to any kind of welfare under capitalism will doom capitalism to be overthrown more violently than it had been in the early 20th century by communists.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    It has nothing to do with nerves being struck and everything to do with your 150 year out of date social analysis being so absurd that it's not even wrong. By the way, the lower class is striking back, but it looks more like a fake tan and a combover than the image of St. Petersburg in 1917 you seem to lust for.
    - lightbyte 9y ago
      >By the way, the lower class is striking back, but it looks more like a fake tan and a combover than the image of St. Petersburg in 1917 you seem to lust for. Are you implying the lower class is "striking back" by electing a NYC real estate billionaire as president? Who are you thinking they are striking against, themselves?
      - mseebach 9y ago
        Well, there's me and Michael Moore. https://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/ https://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/ > Who are you thinking they are striking against, themselves? Being right is not a prerequisite. The workers that rose up in communist revolutions 100 years ago got throughly screwed over.
        jrs95 9y ago
        The good news is that Sanders 2020 is looking very much like a reality at this point
    - norea-armozel 9y ago
      >It has nothing to do with nerves being struck and everything to do with your 150 year out of date social analysis being so absurd that it's not even wrong. Tell that to the US DSA which is seeing record membership increases. And tell that to Kamala Harris who's an astute politician that co-signed Sander's single-payer bill. If the winds of change aren't blowing leftward then explain the current trend. Also, Trump's ascendancy is the result of the capitalists not the working class. Robert Mercer (one of Trump's key supporters) has as much in common with you and me than does a mouse with a moose. Essentially, Trump is the carefully created result of decades of right wing propaganda and concerted destruction of the welfare state. Want to see less of Trump? Then tax the living heck out of the super rich and/or ban their right to fund any kind of think tank or PAC forever (down to a constitution amendment if necessary).
garrettdc 9y ago
Or maybe it is dead in the water because of horrid assumptions in their model...
hyperpape 9y ago
85,600 * (.25 - .14) = a $9416 tax increase, which is less than the $12,000 per year for a single adult, so the top of the middle quintile would net slightly more money after taxes and transfers (way more for two person households). Am I misreading this? (It does seem a little too good to be true).
jrs95 9y ago
Not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if this model meant leaving capital gains taxes low and making the middle class pay for it. If that's the case, then politicians wouldn't have much of an issue with it since it doesn't really harm their donors. In fact, I'm sure there are a lot of companies that would be excited about all that new consumer spending.

norea-armozel 9y ago

Yeah, more likely the rich would just self-fund fascist paramilitaries to keep "the poors" in line like they've always done.

lawless123 9y ago
We'll add a tax on private armies first.
- rbanffy 9y ago
  The rich will make their politicians add a tax so that the middle class to pay for the armies that keep themselves in line.
pyroinferno 9y ago
It's not just "the rich" that wouldn't want this. Do the simple math, if I make 100k a year, which is middle class in most of the US, I would be paying >25% in taxes, which would be at least over 25k. It's a heavy burden to the middle class, and the people it really only benefits are the ones in poverty.
norea-armozel 9y ago
It's weird how my comment really struck the nerve that it did since it's partly in jest. But I will say this much, historically the rich have always favored military solutions rather than economic (or social) ones in dealing with class warfare. If the rich of today want to take a page out of history, they should be more like Otto von Bismarck and pay off the poor and disenfranchised. Meaning that some kind of reformed and expansive welfare state is something that's needed more than Uberizing every facet of life (the most recent one that's really annoyed me is the monetization of game mods by Bethesda; it's a hobby, not a job.). Whether or not that includes basic income remains to be seen, but the fact is all the opposition to any kind of welfare under capitalism will doom capitalism to be overthrown more violently than it had been in the early 20th century by communists.
- mseebach 9y ago
  It has nothing to do with nerves being struck and everything to do with your 150 year out of date social analysis being so absurd that it's not even wrong. By the way, the lower class is striking back, but it looks more like a fake tan and a combover than the image of St. Petersburg in 1917 you seem to lust for.
  - lightbyte 9y ago
    >By the way, the lower class is striking back, but it looks more like a fake tan and a combover than the image of St. Petersburg in 1917 you seem to lust for. Are you implying the lower class is "striking back" by electing a NYC real estate billionaire as president? Who are you thinking they are striking against, themselves?
    - mseebach 9y ago
      Well, there's me and Michael Moore. https://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/ https://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/ > Who are you thinking they are striking against, themselves? Being right is not a prerequisite. The workers that rose up in communist revolutions 100 years ago got throughly screwed over.
      - jrs95 9y ago
        The good news is that Sanders 2020 is looking very much like a reality at this point
  - norea-armozel 9y ago
    >It has nothing to do with nerves being struck and everything to do with your 150 year out of date social analysis being so absurd that it's not even wrong. Tell that to the US DSA which is seeing record membership increases. And tell that to Kamala Harris who's an astute politician that co-signed Sander's single-payer bill. If the winds of change aren't blowing leftward then explain the current trend. Also, Trump's ascendancy is the result of the capitalists not the working class. Robert Mercer (one of Trump's key supporters) has as much in common with you and me than does a mouse with a moose. Essentially, Trump is the carefully created result of decades of right wing propaganda and concerted destruction of the welfare state. Want to see less of Trump? Then tax the living heck out of the super rich and/or ban their right to fund any kind of think tank or PAC forever (down to a constitution amendment if necessary).

garrettdc 9y ago

Or maybe it is dead in the water because of horrid assumptions in their model...

hyperpape 9y ago

85,600 * (.25 - .14) = a $9416 tax increase, which is less than the $12,000 per year for a single adult, so the top of the middle quintile would net slightly more money after taxes and transfers (way more for two person households). Am I misreading this? (It does seem a little too good to be true).

jrs95 9y ago

Not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if this model meant leaving capital gains taxes low and making the middle class pay for it. If that's the case, then politicians wouldn't have much of an issue with it since it doesn't really harm their donors. In fact, I'm sure there are a lot of companies that would be excited about all that new consumer spending.