9 ms·

Fans Watch Taylor Swift. Economists Watch the Fans

40 points by kawera 9y ago

mynegation 9y ago
After the news like that Black Mirror episode s03e01 "Nosedive" does not seem that far-fetched.
- jitix 9y ago
  That episode's premise is probably the most plausible one in near future. Even if public services arent tied to such scores there's nothing preventing one private company to use a score from another private company to deny you service. I know this is how credit scores work currently in the US (which I find extremely strange and disturbing as an immigrant) but maintaining social scores is much more dangerous than credit scores.
  - rpeden 9y ago
    Klout scores people like this already. But I'm not sure if anyone still cares about Klout scores. I'm not sure if they ever did, except for fun.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Some people cared a lot. But they were the same sort of people who use terms like growth hacker and thought leader to describe themselves. I confess to having totally forgotten about Klout. I'm not sure I've heard them come up in years in discussing social media.
  - pavanred 9y ago
    Probably less plausible than you think. What incentive would company X have in denying service to someone based on unrelated parameters? That's just going to reduce business and profits. With credit scores, its a bit different. Credit scores are a risk profile of the consumer, so if a company doesn't deny service/charge higher interest to a consumer with low credit scores, it potentially stands to loose money. Besides, this is regulated, using parameters like gender, age, race etc. in your underwriting model is still illegal, I think. Any such score, used to deny service to group x based on parameters unrelated to the product itself would simply be discrimination, no?
    - zaphar 9y ago
      (disclaimer I would never advocate for this in way shape or form) With that out of the way in small businesses reputation can matter quite a lot. Informally many small businesses know that one guy/shop/service that is not worth having as a client. Regardless of discriminatory issues every client has varying levels of cost associated to doing business with them. So just like Credit Scores are a risk profile for how a person will handle debt. You could envision a subset of social scores as a risk profile on having someone as a business partner/client/provider based on metrics like support cost, likelihood of nickle and diming you, Contract negotiations gone wrong. That sort of thing.
jedberg 9y ago
Nine Inch Nails solved the scalping problem, and I'm not sure why their solution isn't more widely adopted. You had to give your name to buy the ticket, and you could only buy two. Then upon arrival at the venue, you got in line, went through security, and then went to will call. At that point you couldn't leave the venue. You never even took the ticket. Will call handed it to the ticket taker who let you in. So if you were a scalper, the best you could do is scalp your second ticket and then attend the concert with the person you just screwed with an overpriced ticket.
- efefefe 9y ago
  I don't think Taylor Swift is attempting to solve scalping by this. This is nothing more than promotion.
- phowat 9y ago
  This is a lot more time consuming than the average concert venue entrance. Doesn't it result in huge lines?
  - rch 9y ago
    No, it was on par with regular security checks.
  - jedberg 9y ago
    It was no worse than any other concert I ever went to.
  - KeytarHero 9y ago
    It can. U2 did something similar in Vancouver - you needed to show the credit card the ticket was bought with in order to get in. It created huge lineups (a couple hours long) and a lot of fans missed the opening band (Mumford & Sons) [1]. Eventually they just started letting everyone in without checking credit cards, so they could get in before U2 came on. Maybe it works for the 20,000-seat arenas NIN plays in, but it sure didn't work for a 54,000-seat stadium. [1] http://vancouversun.com/entertainment/music/big-crowd-for-u2-long-lines-ahead-of-show-time-outside-bc-place http://vancouversun.com/entertainment/music/big-crowd-for-u2...
cableshaft 9y ago
Scalpers and bots are such a big problem. The recent Super NES pre-orders were a total catastrophe because the scalper bots overloaded the servers and took down/glitched out Target, Walmart, Gamestop and Best Buy's online stores, the pre-orders sold in seconds, pretty much the only people who got pre-orders were scalpers, and they immediately turned around and posted their pre-orders on eBay for 3x the price. I'm open to any attempts to try to limit rewarding these jerks for bad behavior, and hopefully it'll convince others to also find creative ways to limit them (like Nintendo. Mainly Nintendo).
- jedberg 9y ago
  I'm really hoping Nintendo will screw these people by releasing a huge number of units at release, but I suspect that if someone wants one they'll just have to pay 3x. :(
- ericabiz 9y ago
  In person is the solution in this case, I think. I got on GameStop's text list and it went off while I was in the car. My SO and I immediately stopped at the first GameStop we could find and pre-ordered 2. Other people came in and they were all (as far as I could tell) Nintendo fans and not scalpers. We plan to keep 1 and use the other one as a contest prize that we'll run on Facebook once we're able to pick them up in a few weeks. We've already pre-paid and have our receipts (or "golden tickets" as the GameStop cashier called them!) The receipts have our names on them so we are the only ones allowed to pick them up. I hope stores do more of that in the future.
plussed_reader 9y ago
Right, but this time is different, guys. You have to complete FOUR capitalist missions, before you can get the next key for your ticket quest. It used to be FIVE, but now it's FOUR. Made easier, for your convenience.
Froyoh 9y ago
Who watches the economists?
vivekd 9y ago
I can't remember the post, but I remember a while back there was a guy on here who said he used to work as a scalper. I remember he said that despite talking about attempts to get rid of scalpers, the reality is that ticket master and other outlets loved scalpers and worked with them. This is because it's in the interest of the ticket vendor to work with scalpers, because scalpers assume the risk of non-selling tickets. If it weren't' for scalpers, the vendor would take a loss on any tickets that did not sell. Because scalpers exist, they ensure that the tickets get sold out and then the scalper takes the risk of not being able to sell the tickets. Ticketmaster and other vendors will never get rid of scalpers because they have a very strong financial incentive not to.
- 5555624 9y ago
  This on? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13643045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13643045
  - vivekd 9y ago
    Yes, that's amazing that you were able to find it.
- hardtke 9y ago
  The research mentioned from 2007 fascinating. Ticketmaster auctioned off a limited number of prime seats. The authors showed that the auction price for these seats was equal to the secondary market "scalper" price for these seats. It's possible to have a hybrid where only the prime seats go to auction. Ticketmaster does this sometimes already by directly listing some seats on StubHub.
- pc2g4d 9y ago
  It seems weird, though, that an operation like ticketmaster wouldn't work to get rid of this middleman over time, by assuming themselves the risk they had been paying (indirectly) scalpers to assume. Maybe it's that artists also like to appear virtuous by keeping nominal prices low, even if in practice everyone attending the concert pays substantially more.
nvahalik 9y ago
So, if I'm a dad who wants to buy his daughter and her friend tickets to go see TS... and I'm OK with overpaying, is there a way I can cut through the BS? Because this looks like a lot of BS...
- zie 9y ago
  Let your daughter and her friend do the BS, they are probably doing it already anyway. That's sort of the point of the BS... :) Otherwise taskrabbit or something similar would probably be the best bet, or just buy a bunch of TS music and stuff from her website.
SimonPStevens 9y ago
Something I've often wondered about is if there exists a pricing policy that could be implemented in such a way as to remove the incentive of ticket scaplers, while not hurting regular buyers. Some kind of reverse auction perhaps. Or something equally unusual. If it always comes down to, once it's sold out, then the scalpers raise the prices, isn't it simply a question of the balance of supply and demand wanting to push the price up. So why are the event organisers leaving money on the table by pricing below the equilibrium price. Simple answer seems to be let the price rise to the equilibrium, then increase the supply by putting on more events until it falls to the level you want the price to be.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

40 points by kawera 9y ago

mynegation 9y ago

After the news like that Black Mirror episode s03e01 "Nosedive" does not seem that far-fetched.

jitix 9y ago
That episode's premise is probably the most plausible one in near future. Even if public services arent tied to such scores there's nothing preventing one private company to use a score from another private company to deny you service. I know this is how credit scores work currently in the US (which I find extremely strange and disturbing as an immigrant) but maintaining social scores is much more dangerous than credit scores.
- rpeden 9y ago
  Klout scores people like this already. But I'm not sure if anyone still cares about Klout scores. I'm not sure if they ever did, except for fun.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Some people cared a lot. But they were the same sort of people who use terms like growth hacker and thought leader to describe themselves. I confess to having totally forgotten about Klout. I'm not sure I've heard them come up in years in discussing social media.
- pavanred 9y ago
  Probably less plausible than you think. What incentive would company X have in denying service to someone based on unrelated parameters? That's just going to reduce business and profits. With credit scores, its a bit different. Credit scores are a risk profile of the consumer, so if a company doesn't deny service/charge higher interest to a consumer with low credit scores, it potentially stands to loose money. Besides, this is regulated, using parameters like gender, age, race etc. in your underwriting model is still illegal, I think. Any such score, used to deny service to group x based on parameters unrelated to the product itself would simply be discrimination, no?
  - zaphar 9y ago
    (disclaimer I would never advocate for this in way shape or form) With that out of the way in small businesses reputation can matter quite a lot. Informally many small businesses know that one guy/shop/service that is not worth having as a client. Regardless of discriminatory issues every client has varying levels of cost associated to doing business with them. So just like Credit Scores are a risk profile for how a person will handle debt. You could envision a subset of social scores as a risk profile on having someone as a business partner/client/provider based on metrics like support cost, likelihood of nickle and diming you, Contract negotiations gone wrong. That sort of thing.

jedberg 9y ago

Nine Inch Nails solved the scalping problem, and I'm not sure why their solution isn't more widely adopted. You had to give your name to buy the ticket, and you could only buy two. Then upon arrival at the venue, you got in line, went through security, and then went to will call. At that point you couldn't leave the venue. You never even took the ticket. Will call handed it to the ticket taker who let you in. So if you were a scalper, the best you could do is scalp your second ticket and then attend the concert with the person you just screwed with an overpriced ticket.

efefefe 9y ago
I don't think Taylor Swift is attempting to solve scalping by this. This is nothing more than promotion.
phowat 9y ago
This is a lot more time consuming than the average concert venue entrance. Doesn't it result in huge lines?
- rch 9y ago
  No, it was on par with regular security checks.
- jedberg 9y ago
  It was no worse than any other concert I ever went to.
- KeytarHero 9y ago
  It can. U2 did something similar in Vancouver - you needed to show the credit card the ticket was bought with in order to get in. It created huge lineups (a couple hours long) and a lot of fans missed the opening band (Mumford & Sons) [1]. Eventually they just started letting everyone in without checking credit cards, so they could get in before U2 came on. Maybe it works for the 20,000-seat arenas NIN plays in, but it sure didn't work for a 54,000-seat stadium. [1] http://vancouversun.com/entertainment/music/big-crowd-for-u2-long-lines-ahead-of-show-time-outside-bc-place http://vancouversun.com/entertainment/music/big-crowd-for-u2...

cableshaft 9y ago

Scalpers and bots are such a big problem. The recent Super NES pre-orders were a total catastrophe because the scalper bots overloaded the servers and took down/glitched out Target, Walmart, Gamestop and Best Buy's online stores, the pre-orders sold in seconds, pretty much the only people who got pre-orders were scalpers, and they immediately turned around and posted their pre-orders on eBay for 3x the price. I'm open to any attempts to try to limit rewarding these jerks for bad behavior, and hopefully it'll convince others to also find creative ways to limit them (like Nintendo. Mainly Nintendo).

jedberg 9y ago
I'm really hoping Nintendo will screw these people by releasing a huge number of units at release, but I suspect that if someone wants one they'll just have to pay 3x. :(
ericabiz 9y ago
In person is the solution in this case, I think. I got on GameStop's text list and it went off while I was in the car. My SO and I immediately stopped at the first GameStop we could find and pre-ordered 2. Other people came in and they were all (as far as I could tell) Nintendo fans and not scalpers. We plan to keep 1 and use the other one as a contest prize that we'll run on Facebook once we're able to pick them up in a few weeks. We've already pre-paid and have our receipts (or "golden tickets" as the GameStop cashier called them!) The receipts have our names on them so we are the only ones allowed to pick them up. I hope stores do more of that in the future.

plussed_reader 9y ago

Right, but this time is different, guys. You have to complete FOUR capitalist missions, before you can get the next key for your ticket quest. It used to be FIVE, but now it's FOUR. Made easier, for your convenience.

Froyoh 9y ago

Who watches the economists?

vivekd 9y ago

I can't remember the post, but I remember a while back there was a guy on here who said he used to work as a scalper. I remember he said that despite talking about attempts to get rid of scalpers, the reality is that ticket master and other outlets loved scalpers and worked with them. This is because it's in the interest of the ticket vendor to work with scalpers, because scalpers assume the risk of non-selling tickets. If it weren't' for scalpers, the vendor would take a loss on any tickets that did not sell. Because scalpers exist, they ensure that the tickets get sold out and then the scalper takes the risk of not being able to sell the tickets. Ticketmaster and other vendors will never get rid of scalpers because they have a very strong financial incentive not to.

5555624 9y ago
This on? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13643045 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13643045
- vivekd 9y ago
  Yes, that's amazing that you were able to find it.
hardtke 9y ago
The research mentioned from 2007 fascinating. Ticketmaster auctioned off a limited number of prime seats. The authors showed that the auction price for these seats was equal to the secondary market "scalper" price for these seats. It's possible to have a hybrid where only the prime seats go to auction. Ticketmaster does this sometimes already by directly listing some seats on StubHub.
pc2g4d 9y ago
It seems weird, though, that an operation like ticketmaster wouldn't work to get rid of this middleman over time, by assuming themselves the risk they had been paying (indirectly) scalpers to assume. Maybe it's that artists also like to appear virtuous by keeping nominal prices low, even if in practice everyone attending the concert pays substantially more.

nvahalik 9y ago

So, if I'm a dad who wants to buy his daughter and her friend tickets to go see TS... and I'm OK with overpaying, is there a way I can cut through the BS? Because this looks like a lot of BS...

zie 9y ago
Let your daughter and her friend do the BS, they are probably doing it already anyway. That's sort of the point of the BS... :) Otherwise taskrabbit or something similar would probably be the best bet, or just buy a bunch of TS music and stuff from her website.

SimonPStevens 9y ago

Something I've often wondered about is if there exists a pricing policy that could be implemented in such a way as to remove the incentive of ticket scaplers, while not hurting regular buyers. Some kind of reverse auction perhaps. Or something equally unusual. If it always comes down to, once it's sold out, then the scalpers raise the prices, isn't it simply a question of the balance of supply and demand wanting to push the price up. So why are the event organisers leaving money on the table by pricing below the equilibrium price. Simple answer seems to be let the price rise to the equilibrium, then increase the supply by putting on more events until it falls to the level you want the price to be.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]