4 ms·

> In July a friend of mine, who is a mac user, said she wouldn't even consider looking at fontforge on her mac unless it behaved more like a mac application. So

by donw 9y ago

> In July a friend of mine, who is a mac user, said she wouldn't even consider looking at fontforge on her mac unless it behaved more like a mac application. So I figured out how to build a mac Application... > > My friend still (November) has not looked at fontforge. Ah well. This is a great example why user feedback needs to be taken in close proximity to a salt mine. We, or at least most of us, being human, have a horrible job anticipating our future emotional state. So when his friend said that she'd be interested if FontForge was available on her Mac, she probably meant it, but her request didn't reflect the underlying reasons she held for not using the software. Not out of dishonesty or malice, but because she probably didn't know herself. It's like all those times somebody swore they would love to have an app that frobnitzed the foobars, but when said app became available, it was met with a chorus of shrugs and mehs. There's an excellent book on this topic -- The Mom Test -- that anybody building products should read.

WalterBright 9y ago
Reminds me of one day in the 90s I was out jogging with a colleague. He said that what the world needed was a Java compiler that compiled to native code. He needed one right now, and I should work on it. I said it was a great idea, and I had already implemented one. He could start using it today. He promptly lost all interest in it. (It turns out, on the complex plane the demand for native Java compilers is on the imaginary axis.)
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  Did he say what he needed it for, or was it a vague aspiration?
- gumby 9y ago
  Indeed, gcc recently nuked its support for this due to lack of interest (by users or maintainers).
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    That only happened, because the majority of GCJ developers left when OpenJDK was announced back in 2009, and almost no one cared about it since then. Companies selling commercial native compilers for Java are still in business since the early days.
- donw 9y ago
  The follow-on question to an ask like that is nominally a variation on "So, what would that enable you to do?" From there, I can then start digging into what the real problem is. Maybe it was a desire for greater performance, or easier deployability. Maybe his concern was about protecting intellectual property, and he thought that binaries would be harder to reverse-engineer than bytecode. All of those could be legitimate problems, and none of them would really be solved by a Java-to-native compiler.
- hinkley 9y ago
  https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/JamaicaVM https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/JamaicaVM There are/were a couple others, but the customer base is very... exclusive
- pjmlp 9y ago
  > It turns out, on the complex plane the demand for native Java compilers is on the imaginary axis. Quite the contrary. Excelsion JET, IBM, PTG, Aicas have supported native Java compilers since the early days. Oracle added AOT compilation for Linux x64 to OpenJDK on Java 9, with the remaining platforms being supported later. The Java 10 fork, already has Windows and macOS support as well. The Graal team recently announced the Polyglot VM, which is actually another AOT compiler for Java. The demand for native Java compilers is going quite thanks to Fintech and embedded development.
  - le-mark 9y ago
    Indeed, Excelsior JET is really a fantastic product. It's a really straight forward, low friction way to deploy Java desktop applications. Their commercial license prices have risen precipitously in recent years, indicating they must be doing quite well for themselves. It's been a few years since I was a user, but I was very please with the product.
- le-mark 9y ago
  @Walter: did you generate code form the AST or from bytecode? Seems like a lot of the solutions around now generate code from the bytecode, my understanding at least.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    From the AST. The trouble with a native compiler is dealing with dynamic class loading.
    - le-mark 9y ago
      Yeah, I'd leave that out if I were doing it :) otherwise you pretty much have to include an interpreter as well.
      - WalterBright 9y ago
        Including the interpreter, and then the JIT, made a native compiler pointless. But that's all beside the point, which is people will often tell me what they want in a product, but don't actually want it.
saghm 9y ago
> So when his friend said that she'd be interested if FontForge was available on her Mac, she probably meant it, but her request didn't reflect the underlying reasons she held for not using the software. Nitpicking, but that's not what OP said; they said she "wouldn't even consider looking at fontforge on her mac unless it behaved more like a mac application". That's different from affirming that she would be interested in it if it looked native.
rdtsc 9y ago
Another subtle is about asking not just "Would you use it" but "Do you already use something like this?". I bet if his friend is already interesting in fonts they already use something else. Also friends are not reliable product testers. They might feel guilty saying "this sucks" or "there is better stuff than this". They just don't want to hurt you feelings. Even if it is someone you just met at a conference or even on the street if you talk with them long enough, you've already formed a rapport and they probably wouldn't want to upset you.
taejo 9y ago
Well it's 2017 now and FontForge still doesn't behave like a Mac app (it uses X11 still) so the friend seems to have an excellent justification.
watwut 9y ago
Thus sounds more like issue of not listening to user and replacing her response with own wishful thinking.She did not said she will use it if it looks like mac. She was saying no and identified one easy to see thing she dislikes. There is no implication that it is only reason or that she has general interest in it. There is nothing to imply that she would even find the app/topic useful. By anything measurable, the "I don't even look at apps that don't looks mac" have been absolutely honest and true. It did not however meant "the only reason I don't use it is UI look". That part was wishful thinking.
jancsika 9y ago
> So when his friend said that she'd be interested if FontForge was available on her Mac, she probably meant it, but her request didn't reflect the underlying reasons she held for not using the software. The account wasn't that his friend would use the software if. It was wouldn't use the software unless. Those responses imply different things.

by donw 9y ago

WalterBright 9y ago

Reminds me of one day in the 90s I was out jogging with a colleague. He said that what the world needed was a Java compiler that compiled to native code. He needed one right now, and I should work on it. I said it was a great idea, and I had already implemented one. He could start using it today. He promptly lost all interest in it. (It turns out, on the complex plane the demand for native Java compilers is on the imaginary axis.)

thesmallestcat 9y ago
Did he say what he needed it for, or was it a vague aspiration?
gumby 9y ago
Indeed, gcc recently nuked its support for this due to lack of interest (by users or maintainers).
- pjmlp 9y ago
  That only happened, because the majority of GCJ developers left when OpenJDK was announced back in 2009, and almost no one cared about it since then. Companies selling commercial native compilers for Java are still in business since the early days.
donw 9y ago
The follow-on question to an ask like that is nominally a variation on "So, what would that enable you to do?" From there, I can then start digging into what the real problem is. Maybe it was a desire for greater performance, or easier deployability. Maybe his concern was about protecting intellectual property, and he thought that binaries would be harder to reverse-engineer than bytecode. All of those could be legitimate problems, and none of them would really be solved by a Java-to-native compiler.
hinkley 9y ago
https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/JamaicaVM https://www.aicas.com/cms/en/JamaicaVM There are/were a couple others, but the customer base is very... exclusive
pjmlp 9y ago
> It turns out, on the complex plane the demand for native Java compilers is on the imaginary axis. Quite the contrary. Excelsion JET, IBM, PTG, Aicas have supported native Java compilers since the early days. Oracle added AOT compilation for Linux x64 to OpenJDK on Java 9, with the remaining platforms being supported later. The Java 10 fork, already has Windows and macOS support as well. The Graal team recently announced the Polyglot VM, which is actually another AOT compiler for Java. The demand for native Java compilers is going quite thanks to Fintech and embedded development.
- le-mark 9y ago
  Indeed, Excelsior JET is really a fantastic product. It's a really straight forward, low friction way to deploy Java desktop applications. Their commercial license prices have risen precipitously in recent years, indicating they must be doing quite well for themselves. It's been a few years since I was a user, but I was very please with the product.
le-mark 9y ago
@Walter: did you generate code form the AST or from bytecode? Seems like a lot of the solutions around now generate code from the bytecode, my understanding at least.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  From the AST. The trouble with a native compiler is dealing with dynamic class loading.
  - le-mark 9y ago
    Yeah, I'd leave that out if I were doing it :) otherwise you pretty much have to include an interpreter as well.
    - WalterBright 9y ago
      Including the interpreter, and then the JIT, made a native compiler pointless. But that's all beside the point, which is people will often tell me what they want in a product, but don't actually want it.

saghm 9y ago

> So when his friend said that she'd be interested if FontForge was available on her Mac, she probably meant it, but her request didn't reflect the underlying reasons she held for not using the software. Nitpicking, but that's not what OP said; they said she "wouldn't even consider looking at fontforge on her mac unless it behaved more like a mac application". That's different from affirming that she would be interested in it if it looked native.

rdtsc 9y ago

Another subtle is about asking not just "Would you use it" but "Do you already use something like this?". I bet if his friend is already interesting in fonts they already use something else. Also friends are not reliable product testers. They might feel guilty saying "this sucks" or "there is better stuff than this". They just don't want to hurt you feelings. Even if it is someone you just met at a conference or even on the street if you talk with them long enough, you've already formed a rapport and they probably wouldn't want to upset you.

taejo 9y ago

Well it's 2017 now and FontForge still doesn't behave like a Mac app (it uses X11 still) so the friend seems to have an excellent justification.

watwut 9y ago

Thus sounds more like issue of not listening to user and replacing her response with own wishful thinking.She did not said she will use it if it looks like mac. She was saying no and identified one easy to see thing she dislikes. There is no implication that it is only reason or that she has general interest in it. There is nothing to imply that she would even find the app/topic useful. By anything measurable, the "I don't even look at apps that don't looks mac" have been absolutely honest and true. It did not however meant "the only reason I don't use it is UI look". That part was wishful thinking.

jancsika 9y ago

> So when his friend said that she'd be interested if FontForge was available on her Mac, she probably meant it, but her request didn't reflect the underlying reasons she held for not using the software. The account wasn't that his friend would use the software if. It was wouldn't use the software unless. Those responses imply different things.