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So women don't think you're a real man. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect, turn all interactions wi

So women don't think you're a real man. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect, turn all interactions with women into a game, and carefully craft yourself and all your presentation with single-minded purpose into a seduction machine. This is treating women as completely different creatures from us (albeit ripe for taking willing advantage of with half-truths and careful conscious manipulation of human impulse). Yes I know it works, but I'm still sure this is just horribly wrong, and far from "not putting the pussy on a pedestal" (as the movie saying goes) this is worship of the game to such an extent that it makes men willing to transform their whole personality and convince themselves that insincerity is the only honest form of human interaction. That these methods work so well makes me sad about the state of humanity and whatever dreams we could ever have at achieving relations between genders be on equal terms. Maybe the physical and psychological differences are just too great for that, because of the pre-historical assymetry with the burden of carrying and giving birth to a child, I don't know.

photon_off 16y ago
It's foolish to have such a narrowminded opinion of "game". It's only called game; but in actuality is much more an art. Even if you're going to be so brash as to consider it a game, do you still find it impossible to express personality and self-respect while remaining in the construct of rules? You seem to be answering "yes" to that question. Putting your reluctance to realize that "games (systems of rules)" and "art" have no fine line aside, the issue of "gender equality" that you pose makes no sense to me. I suppose it's because I have a much more complicated definition of a "true self," which to you seems to be "not treating women with what I consider 'respect' is immoral and wrong and is 'not me'", that I so strongly disagree with you about virtually everything you said above. Males and females have two completely different mating strategies, and rightly so. For you see, women are stuck with the burden of 9 months of having a baby grow inside them, plus taking care of the child, while men could potentially sire greater-than-the-human-population children every day. Women will obviously be more picky. Men, less so. Intersex competition will be very high and follow a distribution similar to the 80/20 rule, and multiple sexual partners (when it's possible to go undetected) will be beneficial to both sexes. At any rate, I suppose I'm trying to say three things: * Males and females have different strategies for sorting out an ideal mate. How you present yourself is part of your strategy. * If you're willing to always be your "best self," or what you would call "throwing away expression of personality" by "carefully crafting yourself" -- how does that make you not yourself? You are still you, and your actions are yours. * Evolutionary psychology -- it makes sense.
- andreyf 16y ago
  I don't know whether to laugh at or cry for you. Relationships are not an art, and they are not a game. If you want to out-strategize someone, go play Starcraft 2. If you want to analyze someone from an evolutionary psych perspective, go get a degree in psychiatry. Romantic relationships are about forming deep emotional connections, about being true with someone in a way that admits a very real risk of emotional agony. Until you grow the balls to take that gamble, you're simply missing the point.
  - Helianthus16 16y ago
    Yes yes, this is one side of the coin; but you are willfully ignoring the other--willfully because it's presented in this topic. If there is no art to forming deep emotional connections, then there is nothing interesting about it. The game is the protocol, the communication of what "real risk" one is taking. PUAs always communicate that they are taking zero risk, _but_ they provide channels for women to also take zero risk. This is what makes them successful--they have mastered the shallow protocol. But your deep emotional connections are also a game, as is your real risk. You wouldn't fall in love on a first date, would you? You've got rules of engagement, I expect? But I thought it was about the real risk of emotional agony! No. What makes the game fun is when there is real risk, when you play for keeps. PUAs run the risk of forgetting why they got into the game to begin with.
  - hpvic03 16y ago
    Sure, but relationships don't start that way. They start with an initial conversation and flirting, and if you can appear confident, funny, and slightly unavailable, then you get points. Why is that so evil? I don't buy the whole "I don't want to change myself" mantra. Certain behaviors are more attractive; so if you want women, do those behaviors. You don't have to go crazy and do all that weird PUA stuff, just do the important things; e.g. don't be needy or insecure and you're already ahead of the game.
    - andreyf 16y ago
      We might have to agree to disagree, but I'd rather not attract women by appearing more confident than I actually am. And yes, that means sometimes I'm needy and insecure. If that stops a woman from liking me, that's a choice she has a right to make. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've found no shortage of women (both friends and lovers) that have helped me through times of insecurity. It's not in any sense evil, I just think that as long as you keep up these "confident, funny and slightly unavailable" appearances, you neuter the possibility of a genuine emotional connection.
jhamburger 16y ago
At the same time the stereotypical 'nice guy' isn't really being himself either, he's crafting a personality that he intuitively thinks will attract women by kissing their ass incessantly. He just happens to have the wrong idea. I think there's something to be said for the middle ground of learning the lessons of pickup artists but not the message.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  And what makes you so sure women don't enjoy a little (ahem) ass kissing? I have it on first-hand account that some do... edit: I'm not sure if people don't like my sarcasm, don't understand what I actually meant, or are just close-minded.
  - mambodog 16y ago
    I'm sure they enjoy it, that doesn't mean they will respect you more or be more attracted to you for it.
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      I don't think you understood me there (ahem)... ;)
      - jhamburger 16y ago
        har har
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    If you're gonna downvote something straight into the basement, some kind of reply is appreciated... EDIT: logical conclusion: I actually managed to send HN'ers into an illogical blind rage. props to me. Oh look, there goes my respect for the place. <- did I get it right?
    - philk 16y ago
andreyf 16y ago
Yes I know it works [...] Only for some very silly definition of "works". If you want to methodically outsmart people, you can play chess. Doing it in a romantic relationship completely defeats the point. Romantic relationships aren't about following rules, they're about exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation. Yes, doing so risks the most acute of pain, but it can also hold the most sincere of pleasure. And if that isn't nice, I don't know what is. :)
- detst 16y ago
  I think you're missing the point. As an example, you could be "exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation" and be desperate or clingy. Desperate and clingy are things most people find unattractive. That's just the way it is so it's probably good to follow the rule that says not to do this. It's entirely possible to learn the things that attract people and do those things; to learn the things that are unattractive and not do those things, all while being yourself.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    you could be "exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation" and be desperate or clingy Well, everyone has feelings of insecurity, and there's no shortage of women who understand that. To the contrary, I think it's a good litmus test for a woman worth dating. If your feelings of insecurity are so so extensive as to be desperate, needy, clingy, etc., it's probably a good sign you shouldn't be trying to start a relationship to begin with, most certainly not a dishonest one.
    - detst 16y ago
      Again you aren't getting what it's all about. Being desperate or clingy is not always a manifestation of insecurity. It's possible to act desperate or come on too strong and not even realize it. But this is just one example. You seem to refuse to accept that someone can be perfectly capable of being in a relationship while not realizing that they may be doing things that are off-putting; things that aren't defining characteristics. Nothing I've said is about dishonesty. And to be clear, my views here are primarily related to the very early stages (even if they still apply later on); literally just meeting someone and the time that follows. At these times, a girl needs a reason to talk to you over the 50 other guys that have approached her that day. There are countless things you can do/not do without being fake that might give you the upper hand.
etherael 16y ago
People here are just getting what they deserve, on both sides of the transaction.
chc 16y ago
That was my initial reaction, but on further thought, I changed my mind. It's not really all that different than the "game" I play when I buy my friends gifts for their birthday, or get my mom flowers for Mother's Day, or act professional when dealing with clients, or behave more aggressively than usual to win a sports or video game match. The truth is, a person who refuses adjust his behavior to be more palatable to the people he chooses to interact with would have to be a total dick. I'm constantly adjusting to situations I'm in. There's maybe a kernel of me in all of them, but I don't just randomly buy people flowers or throw a ball and tackle people. These are conditional behaviors that I've learned in order to maximize my performance in certain situations and be pleasing to other people. So if you go into dating with the viewpoint that your only goal is to trick other people into hopping in bed with you, that's not good. But it's not good to ignore things that obviously excite and please the object of your affections either.
- potatolicious 16y ago
  I like to think of the PUA community as the atomic bomb - they've got the theory down pat all right, but its application is often destructive, sometimes immoral, and always rubs me the wrong way. In the same analogy, this isn't to say we should just toss it out - I think there's enough sound advice there that can be applied to people who don't want to be total dicks, whose sole purpose of existence isn't tricking women into bed, etc. Call it harnessing nuclear power if you want. There are some powerful bits of psychology floating about in PUA-land, and while I do not always approve of their application thereof, it doesn't mean I can't steal some of it for what is IMHO a more responsible use.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    Is it necessarily destructive though? Not only is there some real wisdom and insight in their teachings (SOME), but if women really do hate it and get burned by it, perhaps they will learn not to respond to those behaviors? That doesn't seem like immediately a bad thing. You could perhaps argue they are only doing what comes natural, but heck- guys have rarely been able to get away with what comes natural.
philk 16y ago
As weird as some of the PUA shit is[1], I don't see what's wrong with changing yourself to help you achieve your goals. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect I don't know about you, but there's a lot of shit I don't like about my personality. I can be introverted, pessimistic and diffident, for example, and I would cheerfully discard those traits even if doing so wouldn't get me laid. I wouldn't see it as "throwing away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect", I'd see it as developing a better version of my current personality. [1] It sort of strikes me as Social Interaction with Flowcharts!
- flat_20 16y ago
  What's wrong is the PUA gurus are selling their products to frail and insecure 17-year olds who need professional help. If you feel you need to change yourself for the better and improve your personality then there are people far better qualified for the job than some sleazy PUA sales rep.
  - philk 16y ago
    In no way am I advocating a frail and insecure 17-year old going off and paying someone to tell him how to harass women in bars.[1] What I'm taking issue with is the idea that you are somehow selling yourself out by making changes to your personality to achieve a given goal. And really, I'm not sure that your frail 17-year old should be trudging off to any professionals[2] before he's tried hitting the gym, doing some travel and getting some hobbies that actually include a decent number of girls. [1] After all you can do that for free, as my fine collection of restraining orders confirms. [2] With the obvious disclaimer that if he's mentally ill he should go seek help.
  - barry-cotter 16y ago
    Speaking as someone who would have cut off their little finger for one of these courses if I'd known about them at 17, WTF? frail and insecure 17-year olds who need professional help. Psychologists and other like personnel are as expensive or more, and if the problem you're trying to solve is "I can't get a relationship/laid" I would go for the PUA over the psychologist. The psychologist might try to help, but he wouldn't be a domain expert, and he might try to convert the client and convince them they have other, deeper problems when that is irrelevant to them. All that said, taking a dead end bar or waiting job and/or getting horribly drunk regularly will also work for the majority of people.
flomo 16y ago
I agree where you're coming from, but you are giving it way too much credit. The thing to realize about this pickup stuff is that it is a product. A product which is being marketed to the most socially-retarded members of the "everyone's a winner" videogame generation. The consumer is looking for a secret button-combo to drop panties, so that is exactly what is being advertised. The secret knowledge being sold really all can be boiled down to "Hit the gym, dress well, have a flirty demeanor, and then go out and play the numbers game." However that would sound like actual work and might require an ego-adjustment or two. And eventually it comes back around to "social proof" and "congruence" and other weird jargony ways of softballing the fact that its easier to meet women if you aren't a loser. Humanity triumphs psychological tricks you can find on the internet, and pretty much everyone involved in this enterprise admits it.
- rapind 16y ago
  Couldn't agree more. This PUA stuff is just adding complexity to a very simple fact. We're incapable of attributing value to something unless we expend effort on it. There's no win unless you feel like you've earned it. Improving your lot in life through effort (GTL or w/e) will make you feel better about yourself and everyone you encounter will sense it. Why would we even want a psychological trick? It would hold no value. My video game generation should definitely realize this. "up-up-down-down-a-b-a-b... well that's the last time I'll ever play this game."
noname123 16y ago
A couple of quick points, 1) Illusion of true love; most people are against PUA because boiling courtship/romance into a state-machine automata is abhoring to their idea of true love. When in fact, I'd argue - it's the other way around, most men want to have sex or emotional intimacy with hot women and it's only later one rationalizes to oneself after that one is dating or marrying for "true" love. In fact, being "nice" to the girl is disingenuous (not to mention that it doesn't work) because you are not being truly "nice" to her but being nice in hopes that you can have sex or be emotionally intimate with her. In that situation, you are not being true either to her or to yourself. 2) Illusion of PUA being superficial; a lot of people decry that doing PUA is selling your soul down the river, like an American man who is desperate, taking the easy way out by ordering mail-order bride from Russia. But PUA, I'd argue is not about taking the easy way out but confronting and taking control of one's reality. Human biology dictates that in order to be happy, you need to both get laid physically and share emotional intimacy with a significant other. PUA is about achieving that means, with the minimal sacrifice on your time/resources (you don't have to be rich or learn how to shred on the guitar, etc). Nothing is sadder than a man who spent his whole life "nest-building" and "peacocking" in hopes for the right woman to come along in his life, only to give up his personal goals and vision in return. So in a sense, doing PUA is being true to yourself. Falling in love/getting laid is important to me but it is not the only thing in my life. Of course, this is very subjective; but just wanted to express my perspective (which I don't think is the mainstream view) on this matter, to at least to get people to reconsider their belief about courtship/dating, if not change their minds completely.
augustl 16y ago
Most of the techniques described in most of the literature available, is about picking up über hot girls in night clubs, where you compete with über manly football team captains. If you're at a party in a friends house, different methods are used. The core concept is that you should not give a pretty woman higher value just because of her looks. I think that is a great concept.
cousin_it 16y ago
That these methods work so well makes me sad about the state of humanity and whatever dreams we could ever have at achieving relations between genders be on equal terms. What? Average women have more power in gender relations than average men. Pickup techniques help achieve equality here. Also the average woman spends more effort on being attractive than the average man, and pickup techniques make men work on their attractiveness, helping achieve equality in this respect too :-)
- gaius 16y ago
  Well, yes and no. A 20-year-old woman is in the position of being able to date anywhere in the dating pool. She can go for a guitar player her own age or a 50-year-old business executive. A 20-year-old man is probably permanently broke, dressed like a teenager and still inexperienced in the ways of the world. A 30-year-old women sees her options begin to shrink - she's now competing with the 20-year-olds. A 30-year-old man is finally making money, he's probably traveled a bit, he's discovered the finer things in life, he's well dressed and confident. He has options now. And it's not unreasonable for him to overlook the women who overlooked him 10 years before.
sev 16y ago
> So women don't think you're a real man. The problem is that they don't think you are a real man for the wrong reasons (usually, and in this case all the time, since this game is played before you actually know each other). From the article: "Strauss was transformed from a short, skinny, balding..." If the definition of "real man" (at first impression, before truly knowing a man) is based on height, weight, and hair, then the methods, psychological games, and trickeries involved in these methods are fair game.
gaius 16y ago
Yes I know it works It "works" in the same way as makeup, a push-up bra and control pants "works" for a girl. Not quite deceiving but certainly presenting yourself in the best possible way. It's weird tho that a guy who learns game is a "loser" but a girl who buys a Wonderbra and a pair of Spanx isn't stigmatized at all.
stcredzero 16y ago
So women don't think you're a real man. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect, turn all interactions with women into a game, and carefully craft yourself and all your presentation with single-minded purpose into a seduction machine. I think that the solution is three-fold. 1) Find the right community/context. If you live in a community where evaluation is too shallow, then move. Find a different place to hang out. It's a big world out there, and there's all sorts of contexts. There are contexts where people are not completely vapid. 2) Substance. Be willing to die alone for your values. Are you? If you're not, then don't take this path. If you are, then welcome, brother! (+) In the meantime, do substantive things. Competence is sexy so have it, not just its semblance. Combine this with some genuine fun, and it's a killer combination. 3) Find ways to "be more you." One thing that impressed me about some of the hairdressers on "What Not to Wear" was their ability to make someone more who they were. They didn't jack with someone's identity, they just cleaned it up a bit. (+) - Hetero women have a similar path that they can take, but it's not the exact same one as for hetero men. As for other orientations, there must be analogues, but I don't feel qualified to comment.

photon_off 16y ago

It's foolish to have such a narrowminded opinion of "game". It's only called game; but in actuality is much more an art. Even if you're going to be so brash as to consider it a game, do you still find it impossible to express personality and self-respect while remaining in the construct of rules? You seem to be answering "yes" to that question. Putting your reluctance to realize that "games (systems of rules)" and "art" have no fine line aside, the issue of "gender equality" that you pose makes no sense to me. I suppose it's because I have a much more complicated definition of a "true self," which to you seems to be "not treating women with what I consider 'respect' is immoral and wrong and is 'not me'", that I so strongly disagree with you about virtually everything you said above. Males and females have two completely different mating strategies, and rightly so. For you see, women are stuck with the burden of 9 months of having a baby grow inside them, plus taking care of the child, while men could potentially sire greater-than-the-human-population children every day. Women will obviously be more picky. Men, less so. Intersex competition will be very high and follow a distribution similar to the 80/20 rule, and multiple sexual partners (when it's possible to go undetected) will be beneficial to both sexes. At any rate, I suppose I'm trying to say three things: * Males and females have different strategies for sorting out an ideal mate. How you present yourself is part of your strategy. * If you're willing to always be your "best self," or what you would call "throwing away expression of personality" by "carefully crafting yourself" -- how does that make you not yourself? You are still you, and your actions are yours. * Evolutionary psychology -- it makes sense.

andreyf 16y ago
I don't know whether to laugh at or cry for you. Relationships are not an art, and they are not a game. If you want to out-strategize someone, go play Starcraft 2. If you want to analyze someone from an evolutionary psych perspective, go get a degree in psychiatry. Romantic relationships are about forming deep emotional connections, about being true with someone in a way that admits a very real risk of emotional agony. Until you grow the balls to take that gamble, you're simply missing the point.
- Helianthus16 16y ago
  Yes yes, this is one side of the coin; but you are willfully ignoring the other--willfully because it's presented in this topic. If there is no art to forming deep emotional connections, then there is nothing interesting about it. The game is the protocol, the communication of what "real risk" one is taking. PUAs always communicate that they are taking zero risk, _but_ they provide channels for women to also take zero risk. This is what makes them successful--they have mastered the shallow protocol. But your deep emotional connections are also a game, as is your real risk. You wouldn't fall in love on a first date, would you? You've got rules of engagement, I expect? But I thought it was about the real risk of emotional agony! No. What makes the game fun is when there is real risk, when you play for keeps. PUAs run the risk of forgetting why they got into the game to begin with.
- hpvic03 16y ago
  Sure, but relationships don't start that way. They start with an initial conversation and flirting, and if you can appear confident, funny, and slightly unavailable, then you get points. Why is that so evil? I don't buy the whole "I don't want to change myself" mantra. Certain behaviors are more attractive; so if you want women, do those behaviors. You don't have to go crazy and do all that weird PUA stuff, just do the important things; e.g. don't be needy or insecure and you're already ahead of the game.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    We might have to agree to disagree, but I'd rather not attract women by appearing more confident than I actually am. And yes, that means sometimes I'm needy and insecure. If that stops a woman from liking me, that's a choice she has a right to make. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've found no shortage of women (both friends and lovers) that have helped me through times of insecurity. It's not in any sense evil, I just think that as long as you keep up these "confident, funny and slightly unavailable" appearances, you neuter the possibility of a genuine emotional connection.

jhamburger 16y ago

At the same time the stereotypical 'nice guy' isn't really being himself either, he's crafting a personality that he intuitively thinks will attract women by kissing their ass incessantly. He just happens to have the wrong idea. I think there's something to be said for the middle ground of learning the lessons of pickup artists but not the message.

sliverstorm 16y ago
And what makes you so sure women don't enjoy a little (ahem) ass kissing? I have it on first-hand account that some do... edit: I'm not sure if people don't like my sarcasm, don't understand what I actually meant, or are just close-minded.
- mambodog 16y ago
  I'm sure they enjoy it, that doesn't mean they will respect you more or be more attracted to you for it.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    I don't think you understood me there (ahem)... ;)
    - jhamburger 16y ago
      har har
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  If you're gonna downvote something straight into the basement, some kind of reply is appreciated... EDIT: logical conclusion: I actually managed to send HN'ers into an illogical blind rage. props to me. Oh look, there goes my respect for the place. <- did I get it right?
  - philk 16y ago

andreyf 16y ago

Yes I know it works [...] Only for some very silly definition of "works". If you want to methodically outsmart people, you can play chess. Doing it in a romantic relationship completely defeats the point. Romantic relationships aren't about following rules, they're about exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation. Yes, doing so risks the most acute of pain, but it can also hold the most sincere of pleasure. And if that isn't nice, I don't know what is. :)

detst 16y ago
I think you're missing the point. As an example, you could be "exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation" and be desperate or clingy. Desperate and clingy are things most people find unattractive. That's just the way it is so it's probably good to follow the rule that says not to do this. It's entirely possible to learn the things that attract people and do those things; to learn the things that are unattractive and not do those things, all while being yourself.
- andreyf 16y ago
  you could be "exposing yourself to someone without a moment of hesitation" and be desperate or clingy Well, everyone has feelings of insecurity, and there's no shortage of women who understand that. To the contrary, I think it's a good litmus test for a woman worth dating. If your feelings of insecurity are so so extensive as to be desperate, needy, clingy, etc., it's probably a good sign you shouldn't be trying to start a relationship to begin with, most certainly not a dishonest one.
  - detst 16y ago
    Again you aren't getting what it's all about. Being desperate or clingy is not always a manifestation of insecurity. It's possible to act desperate or come on too strong and not even realize it. But this is just one example. You seem to refuse to accept that someone can be perfectly capable of being in a relationship while not realizing that they may be doing things that are off-putting; things that aren't defining characteristics. Nothing I've said is about dishonesty. And to be clear, my views here are primarily related to the very early stages (even if they still apply later on); literally just meeting someone and the time that follows. At these times, a girl needs a reason to talk to you over the 50 other guys that have approached her that day. There are countless things you can do/not do without being fake that might give you the upper hand.

etherael 16y ago

People here are just getting what they deserve, on both sides of the transaction.

chc 16y ago

That was my initial reaction, but on further thought, I changed my mind. It's not really all that different than the "game" I play when I buy my friends gifts for their birthday, or get my mom flowers for Mother's Day, or act professional when dealing with clients, or behave more aggressively than usual to win a sports or video game match. The truth is, a person who refuses adjust his behavior to be more palatable to the people he chooses to interact with would have to be a total dick. I'm constantly adjusting to situations I'm in. There's maybe a kernel of me in all of them, but I don't just randomly buy people flowers or throw a ball and tackle people. These are conditional behaviors that I've learned in order to maximize my performance in certain situations and be pleasing to other people. So if you go into dating with the viewpoint that your only goal is to trick other people into hopping in bed with you, that's not good. But it's not good to ignore things that obviously excite and please the object of your affections either.

potatolicious 16y ago
I like to think of the PUA community as the atomic bomb - they've got the theory down pat all right, but its application is often destructive, sometimes immoral, and always rubs me the wrong way. In the same analogy, this isn't to say we should just toss it out - I think there's enough sound advice there that can be applied to people who don't want to be total dicks, whose sole purpose of existence isn't tricking women into bed, etc. Call it harnessing nuclear power if you want. There are some powerful bits of psychology floating about in PUA-land, and while I do not always approve of their application thereof, it doesn't mean I can't steal some of it for what is IMHO a more responsible use.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Is it necessarily destructive though? Not only is there some real wisdom and insight in their teachings (SOME), but if women really do hate it and get burned by it, perhaps they will learn not to respond to those behaviors? That doesn't seem like immediately a bad thing. You could perhaps argue they are only doing what comes natural, but heck- guys have rarely been able to get away with what comes natural.

philk 16y ago

As weird as some of the PUA shit is[1], I don't see what's wrong with changing yourself to help you achieve your goals. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect I don't know about you, but there's a lot of shit I don't like about my personality. I can be introverted, pessimistic and diffident, for example, and I would cheerfully discard those traits even if doing so wouldn't get me laid. I wouldn't see it as "throwing away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect", I'd see it as developing a better version of my current personality. [1] It sort of strikes me as Social Interaction with Flowcharts!

flat_20 16y ago
What's wrong is the PUA gurus are selling their products to frail and insecure 17-year olds who need professional help. If you feel you need to change yourself for the better and improve your personality then there are people far better qualified for the job than some sleazy PUA sales rep.
- philk 16y ago
  In no way am I advocating a frail and insecure 17-year old going off and paying someone to tell him how to harass women in bars.[1] What I'm taking issue with is the idea that you are somehow selling yourself out by making changes to your personality to achieve a given goal. And really, I'm not sure that your frail 17-year old should be trudging off to any professionals[2] before he's tried hitting the gym, doing some travel and getting some hobbies that actually include a decent number of girls. [1] After all you can do that for free, as my fine collection of restraining orders confirms. [2] With the obvious disclaimer that if he's mentally ill he should go seek help.
- barry-cotter 16y ago
  Speaking as someone who would have cut off their little finger for one of these courses if I'd known about them at 17, WTF? frail and insecure 17-year olds who need professional help. Psychologists and other like personnel are as expensive or more, and if the problem you're trying to solve is "I can't get a relationship/laid" I would go for the PUA over the psychologist. The psychologist might try to help, but he wouldn't be a domain expert, and he might try to convert the client and convince them they have other, deeper problems when that is irrelevant to them. All that said, taking a dead end bar or waiting job and/or getting horribly drunk regularly will also work for the majority of people.

flomo 16y ago

I agree where you're coming from, but you are giving it way too much credit. The thing to realize about this pickup stuff is that it is a product. A product which is being marketed to the most socially-retarded members of the "everyone's a winner" videogame generation. The consumer is looking for a secret button-combo to drop panties, so that is exactly what is being advertised. The secret knowledge being sold really all can be boiled down to "Hit the gym, dress well, have a flirty demeanor, and then go out and play the numbers game." However that would sound like actual work and might require an ego-adjustment or two. And eventually it comes back around to "social proof" and "congruence" and other weird jargony ways of softballing the fact that its easier to meet women if you aren't a loser. Humanity triumphs psychological tricks you can find on the internet, and pretty much everyone involved in this enterprise admits it.

rapind 16y ago
Couldn't agree more. This PUA stuff is just adding complexity to a very simple fact. We're incapable of attributing value to something unless we expend effort on it. There's no win unless you feel like you've earned it. Improving your lot in life through effort (GTL or w/e) will make you feel better about yourself and everyone you encounter will sense it. Why would we even want a psychological trick? It would hold no value. My video game generation should definitely realize this. "up-up-down-down-a-b-a-b... well that's the last time I'll ever play this game."

noname123 16y ago

A couple of quick points, 1) Illusion of true love; most people are against PUA because boiling courtship/romance into a state-machine automata is abhoring to their idea of true love. When in fact, I'd argue - it's the other way around, most men want to have sex or emotional intimacy with hot women and it's only later one rationalizes to oneself after that one is dating or marrying for "true" love. In fact, being "nice" to the girl is disingenuous (not to mention that it doesn't work) because you are not being truly "nice" to her but being nice in hopes that you can have sex or be emotionally intimate with her. In that situation, you are not being true either to her or to yourself. 2) Illusion of PUA being superficial; a lot of people decry that doing PUA is selling your soul down the river, like an American man who is desperate, taking the easy way out by ordering mail-order bride from Russia. But PUA, I'd argue is not about taking the easy way out but confronting and taking control of one's reality. Human biology dictates that in order to be happy, you need to both get laid physically and share emotional intimacy with a significant other. PUA is about achieving that means, with the minimal sacrifice on your time/resources (you don't have to be rich or learn how to shred on the guitar, etc). Nothing is sadder than a man who spent his whole life "nest-building" and "peacocking" in hopes for the right woman to come along in his life, only to give up his personal goals and vision in return. So in a sense, doing PUA is being true to yourself. Falling in love/getting laid is important to me but it is not the only thing in my life. Of course, this is very subjective; but just wanted to express my perspective (which I don't think is the mainstream view) on this matter, to at least to get people to reconsider their belief about courtship/dating, if not change their minds completely.

augustl 16y ago

Most of the techniques described in most of the literature available, is about picking up über hot girls in night clubs, where you compete with über manly football team captains. If you're at a party in a friends house, different methods are used. The core concept is that you should not give a pretty woman higher value just because of her looks. I think that is a great concept.

cousin_it 16y ago

That these methods work so well makes me sad about the state of humanity and whatever dreams we could ever have at achieving relations between genders be on equal terms. What? Average women have more power in gender relations than average men. Pickup techniques help achieve equality here. Also the average woman spends more effort on being attractive than the average man, and pickup techniques make men work on their attractiveness, helping achieve equality in this respect too :-)

gaius 16y ago
Well, yes and no. A 20-year-old woman is in the position of being able to date anywhere in the dating pool. She can go for a guitar player her own age or a 50-year-old business executive. A 20-year-old man is probably permanently broke, dressed like a teenager and still inexperienced in the ways of the world. A 30-year-old women sees her options begin to shrink - she's now competing with the 20-year-olds. A 30-year-old man is finally making money, he's probably traveled a bit, he's discovered the finer things in life, he's well dressed and confident. He has options now. And it's not unreasonable for him to overlook the women who overlooked him 10 years before.

sev 16y ago

> So women don't think you're a real man. The problem is that they don't think you are a real man for the wrong reasons (usually, and in this case all the time, since this game is played before you actually know each other). From the article: "Strauss was transformed from a short, skinny, balding..." If the definition of "real man" (at first impression, before truly knowing a man) is based on height, weight, and hair, then the methods, psychological games, and trickeries involved in these methods are fair game.

gaius 16y ago

Yes I know it works It "works" in the same way as makeup, a push-up bra and control pants "works" for a girl. Not quite deceiving but certainly presenting yourself in the best possible way. It's weird tho that a guy who learns game is a "loser" but a girl who buys a Wonderbra and a pair of Spanx isn't stigmatized at all.

stcredzero 16y ago

So women don't think you're a real man. And the solution: throw away expression of the personality you like and want to be and respect, turn all interactions with women into a game, and carefully craft yourself and all your presentation with single-minded purpose into a seduction machine. I think that the solution is three-fold. 1) Find the right community/context. If you live in a community where evaluation is too shallow, then move. Find a different place to hang out. It's a big world out there, and there's all sorts of contexts. There are contexts where people are not completely vapid. 2) Substance. Be willing to die alone for your values. Are you? If you're not, then don't take this path. If you are, then welcome, brother! (+) In the meantime, do substantive things. Competence is sexy so have it, not just its semblance. Combine this with some genuine fun, and it's a killer combination. 3) Find ways to "be more you." One thing that impressed me about some of the hairdressers on "What Not to Wear" was their ability to make someone more who they were. They didn't jack with someone's identity, they just cleaned it up a bit. (+) - Hetero women have a similar path that they can take, but it's not the exact same one as for hetero men. As for other orientations, there must be analogues, but I don't feel qualified to comment.