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> I see this as yet another tax on (European) startups who have to invest even more resources into regulatory compliance. This also affects American companies

> I see this as yet another tax on (European) startups who have to invest even more resources into regulatory compliance. This also affects American companies and the degree it affects you primarily depends on how much of your business model was depending on you doing nefarious things with customer data.

bflesch 9y ago
Of course this affects american companies, as the whole thing is primarily designed as a weapon for the EU against US dominance in the consumer space. The big problem for the EU is that consumers actually choose the best product in a free market (the internet of free services), and they overwhelmingly decided to use the US-based options. All the framing as "nefarious" is propaganda, consumers choose freely the option they value the most. If someone else comes along providing more value than google or facebook everyone would switch in an instant.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  I suppose we fundamentally disagree on a few things here so I won't go into a discussion about the motivation of this law (which I as a EU citizen support). I do however want to leave a note on this quote here: > All the framing as "nefarious" is propaganda, consumers choose freely the option they value the most. Customers cannot choose freely. I'm a customer and I cannot chose certain products because they do not exist. Companies I never engage with are tracking my activities through tracking pixels and other things and because I never establish a business relationship with them, I cannot avoid that. This bill now forces a company I might do business with not do business with companies that do not permit me to get rid of my data. I think this a good development because it finally makes certain backroom deals visible.
  - bflesch 9y ago
    > Companies I never engage with are tracking my activities through tracking pixels and other things and because I never establish a business relationship with them, I cannot avoid that. You can easily avoid being tracked by using an adblocker. Other websites only track you because they are business partners of the tracking companies, which provide a lot of value in terms of analytics for the business - free of charge. > I think this a good development because it finally makes certain backroom deals visible. As a German, I'd like to have more transparency into the backroom deals that are done in Berlin and Brussels. But this won't happen unfortunately, and they'll try to regulate IT to death to the benefit of local corporations who failed again and again providing the consumer with as valuable producs as their US counterparts.
    - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
      > You can easily avoid being tracked by using an adblocker. Except not really. Plenty if tracking happens regardless based on fingerprinting. And even ignoring ads there are plenty of free services that after a while turn iut to be so shoddy that they lose the data i left on their services and provide no way for me to demand deletion. I get a mail every other month that my email address and password where found in a data leak. This regulation is a good first step of forcing companies to think about the consequences of having data. > As a German, I'd like to have more transparency into the backroom deals that are done in Berlin and Brussels Same. I want a lot of transparency including from my own government. I'm however going to accept any positive development and won't demand them to be in a certain order :P There are a lot of people who are trying to shape the EU into a better institution. It's not perfect but it's a pretty good start.
- M2Ys4U 9y ago
  > Of course this affects american companies, as the whole thing is primarily designed as a weapon for the EU against US dominance in the consumer space. It really isn't. The EU are global leaders in data protection, and it comes from a belief that the right to a private life is a fundamental human right.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
leggomylibro 9y ago
Could American companies simply state that European citizens are not allowed to use their service due to stringent compliance laws, and add a checkbox stating something like, 'My residence is not subject to EU jurisdiction?' Yeah, yeah, "giving up lots of customers," but if you're a small startup it might be attractive to target a smaller problem space to start with. Also, everyone does this already with, "I am older than 13" boxes since it's broadly illegal to collect childrens' data; you probably wouldn't even have to do any verification as long as you don't wilfully stick your fingers in your ears.
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  > Could American companies simply state that European citizens are not allowed to use their service due to stringent compliance laws, and add a checkbox stating something like, 'My residence is not subject to EU jurisdiction?' That works for B2C situations but it won't work if you have European companies as customers.
  - kobeya 9y ago
    I don't have any operations in the EU. I don't collect revenue directly from EU residents using my services. I have no presence in Europe, but some Europeans do use my website (it's a free Internet). What's the EU going to do? They have no jurisdiction over me.
    - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
      If Europeans use your website and don't pay for it that's fair game largely. The details are a bit more complicated.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        So.. Facebook is okay then if they move their data centers? For average users, I mean. They don't pay a cent to access facebook.com. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of this legislation.
taysic 9y ago
>depends on how much of your business model was depending on you doing nefarious things with customer data From what's written in the article it seems it impacts anyone who is doing anything with data, which is basically every startup.

bflesch 9y ago

Of course this affects american companies, as the whole thing is primarily designed as a weapon for the EU against US dominance in the consumer space. The big problem for the EU is that consumers actually choose the best product in a free market (the internet of free services), and they overwhelmingly decided to use the US-based options. All the framing as "nefarious" is propaganda, consumers choose freely the option they value the most. If someone else comes along providing more value than google or facebook everyone would switch in an instant.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
I suppose we fundamentally disagree on a few things here so I won't go into a discussion about the motivation of this law (which I as a EU citizen support). I do however want to leave a note on this quote here: > All the framing as "nefarious" is propaganda, consumers choose freely the option they value the most. Customers cannot choose freely. I'm a customer and I cannot chose certain products because they do not exist. Companies I never engage with are tracking my activities through tracking pixels and other things and because I never establish a business relationship with them, I cannot avoid that. This bill now forces a company I might do business with not do business with companies that do not permit me to get rid of my data. I think this a good development because it finally makes certain backroom deals visible.
- bflesch 9y ago
  > Companies I never engage with are tracking my activities through tracking pixels and other things and because I never establish a business relationship with them, I cannot avoid that. You can easily avoid being tracked by using an adblocker. Other websites only track you because they are business partners of the tracking companies, which provide a lot of value in terms of analytics for the business - free of charge. > I think this a good development because it finally makes certain backroom deals visible. As a German, I'd like to have more transparency into the backroom deals that are done in Berlin and Brussels. But this won't happen unfortunately, and they'll try to regulate IT to death to the benefit of local corporations who failed again and again providing the consumer with as valuable producs as their US counterparts.
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    > You can easily avoid being tracked by using an adblocker. Except not really. Plenty if tracking happens regardless based on fingerprinting. And even ignoring ads there are plenty of free services that after a while turn iut to be so shoddy that they lose the data i left on their services and provide no way for me to demand deletion. I get a mail every other month that my email address and password where found in a data leak. This regulation is a good first step of forcing companies to think about the consequences of having data. > As a German, I'd like to have more transparency into the backroom deals that are done in Berlin and Brussels Same. I want a lot of transparency including from my own government. I'm however going to accept any positive development and won't demand them to be in a certain order :P There are a lot of people who are trying to shape the EU into a better institution. It's not perfect but it's a pretty good start.
M2Ys4U 9y ago
> Of course this affects american companies, as the whole thing is primarily designed as a weapon for the EU against US dominance in the consumer space. It really isn't. The EU are global leaders in data protection, and it comes from a belief that the right to a private life is a fundamental human right.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

leggomylibro 9y ago

Could American companies simply state that European citizens are not allowed to use their service due to stringent compliance laws, and add a checkbox stating something like, 'My residence is not subject to EU jurisdiction?' Yeah, yeah, "giving up lots of customers," but if you're a small startup it might be attractive to target a smaller problem space to start with. Also, everyone does this already with, "I am older than 13" boxes since it's broadly illegal to collect childrens' data; you probably wouldn't even have to do any verification as long as you don't wilfully stick your fingers in your ears.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
> Could American companies simply state that European citizens are not allowed to use their service due to stringent compliance laws, and add a checkbox stating something like, 'My residence is not subject to EU jurisdiction?' That works for B2C situations but it won't work if you have European companies as customers.
- kobeya 9y ago
  I don't have any operations in the EU. I don't collect revenue directly from EU residents using my services. I have no presence in Europe, but some Europeans do use my website (it's a free Internet). What's the EU going to do? They have no jurisdiction over me.
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    If Europeans use your website and don't pay for it that's fair game largely. The details are a bit more complicated.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      So.. Facebook is okay then if they move their data centers? For average users, I mean. They don't pay a cent to access facebook.com. I'm pretty sure that's not the intent of this legislation.

taysic 9y ago

>depends on how much of your business model was depending on you doing nefarious things with customer data From what's written in the article it seems it impacts anyone who is doing anything with data, which is basically every startup.