4 ms·

Food or shelter are not produced for free either, and they are still widely accepted human rights. Of course it's clear that one cannot just go and label arbitr

Food or shelter are not produced for free either, and they are still widely accepted human rights. Of course it's clear that one cannot just go and label arbitrarily expensive things as human rights, but of course guaranteeing human rights can take a nontrivial amount of work. This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work.

sol_remmy 9y ago
> This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work. What about in a country in crisis like Venezuela with no money to afford human rights? In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers?
- icebraining 9y ago
  In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers? Yes, as they have always done. It's called paying taxes. In my country, the media even underlines that every year by calculating how many days the average worker does "for free" (ie, to pay the various taxes), and on that day, counting from January 1st, they announce it on TV and such.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    Yet they fail to count when you stop living for free, when society stops paying for your peace and security. That happens in the exact same second.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      I can't decode what you're saying, sorry.
      - isostatic 9y ago
        The value the average person pays in taxes is the exact same value that the average person gets from the services those taxes provide.
        icebraining 9y ago
        What an extraordinary statement. So it doesn't matter what the government does with the money, the average person always gets the same value for the same tax bill? I don't know why we bother to have elections.
lolsal 9y ago
I think the difference is that you have a right to procure food and a right to create your own shelter. You don't have a right that requires someone to give you food or give you shelter.
- scarmig 9y ago
  You don't have a right as an individual to force another individual to give you material goods. You do have a right to food, shelter, and physical security, and if you don't have those, then yes, your rights are being violated and the government is failing in it's responsibilities.
  - lolsal 9y ago
    I guess we disagree on fundamental principals. Governments require humans to exist. Humans do not require governments to exist. Rights exist for humans regardless of whether or not they are being governed (or in spite of being governed!).
    - scarmig 9y ago
      Right. Conditions of anarchy where security isn't guaranteed have a tendency toward massive violations of rights. Both of "property" rights and "human" rights.
    - vilmosi 9y ago
      >>> Rights exist for humans regardless of whether or not they are being governed I don't know, I mean rights as we know it didn't exist until relatively recently when they were recognised and enforced by governments. I don't see how "free speech" can exist without something protecting that right. Yes, I know, technically the person shutting you up is technically violating your right. But without an objective arbiter such as society, they were just exercising their right to shut you up, which, in their view, is their god given right, who's to say.
ghostwriter 9y ago
> states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work. States cannot pay until they have a value to pay with, and the value a state can dispose of is created by individuals.
lr4444lr 9y ago
The key is in the word "access". In most countries, there is always _access_ to food or shelter through social services on a basis of immediate need, but not long term property rights over it or the resources to secure it long term.

sol_remmy 9y ago

> This does not mean anyone should "work for free", states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work. What about in a country in crisis like Venezuela with no money to afford human rights? In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers?

icebraining 9y ago
In a time of crisis, do farmers and doctors need to work for free to guarantee the human rights of others? How about Amazon warehouse workers? Yes, as they have always done. It's called paying taxes. In my country, the media even underlines that every year by calculating how many days the average worker does "for free" (ie, to pay the various taxes), and on that day, counting from January 1st, they announce it on TV and such.
- isostatic 9y ago
  Yet they fail to count when you stop living for free, when society stops paying for your peace and security. That happens in the exact same second.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I can't decode what you're saying, sorry.
    - isostatic 9y ago
      The value the average person pays in taxes is the exact same value that the average person gets from the services those taxes provide.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        What an extraordinary statement. So it doesn't matter what the government does with the money, the average person always gets the same value for the same tax bill? I don't know why we bother to have elections.

lolsal 9y ago

I think the difference is that you have a right to procure food and a right to create your own shelter. You don't have a right that requires someone to give you food or give you shelter.

scarmig 9y ago
You don't have a right as an individual to force another individual to give you material goods. You do have a right to food, shelter, and physical security, and if you don't have those, then yes, your rights are being violated and the government is failing in it's responsibilities.
- lolsal 9y ago
  I guess we disagree on fundamental principals. Governments require humans to exist. Humans do not require governments to exist. Rights exist for humans regardless of whether or not they are being governed (or in spite of being governed!).
  - scarmig 9y ago
    Right. Conditions of anarchy where security isn't guaranteed have a tendency toward massive violations of rights. Both of "property" rights and "human" rights.
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    >>> Rights exist for humans regardless of whether or not they are being governed I don't know, I mean rights as we know it didn't exist until relatively recently when they were recognised and enforced by governments. I don't see how "free speech" can exist without something protecting that right. Yes, I know, technically the person shutting you up is technically violating your right. But without an objective arbiter such as society, they were just exercising their right to shut you up, which, in their view, is their god given right, who's to say.

ghostwriter 9y ago

> states and other administrations are supposed to guarantee human rights and they can pay for that work. States cannot pay until they have a value to pay with, and the value a state can dispose of is created by individuals.

lr4444lr 9y ago

The key is in the word "access". In most countries, there is always _access_ to food or shelter through social services on a basis of immediate need, but not long term property rights over it or the resources to secure it long term.