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I don't think any sane person doubts intelligence is genetic and inheritable. I think the other poster's point was more that there isn't a simple genetic switc

by sqeaky 9y ago

I don't think any sane person doubts intelligence is genetic and inheritable. I think the other poster's point was more that there isn't a simple genetic switch that adds 5 IQ points. There appear to be many complex factors that are part of intelligence and currently we are not sure how to untangle that mess to get simple thing we can do to make people smarter.

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
Exactly. It's a fundamentally different problem to solve as compared to treating genetic illnesses and far more likely to involve some sort of trade off or side effects due to the number of genes involved. Considering that approximately half of measured intelligence variation isn't concluded to be genetic [0] it's my opinion you get a lot more bang for your buck focusing on social and environmental factors if you want to increase a populous's overall intellectual acumen.
- sbierwagen 9y ago
  >far more likely to involve some sort of trade off or side effects http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/04/myers-race-car-versus-the-general-fitness-factor/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/04/myers-race-car-versus-t... >People with high IQ tend to live longer. For example, a person with IQ 115 (85th percentile) is 20% more likely to survive to age 76 than an average person with IQ 100. [...] People with high IQ tend to be taller. This is interesting since height is often used as a measure of health and fitness during childhood, and since taller people get a bunch of advantages including being rated as more attractive and earning higher income. [...] People with high IQ may be more attractive. This is the conclusion of a meta-analysis that finds a positive correlation between intelligence and body symmetry, usually used as a proxy for attractiveness unaffected by things like hairstyle and cosmetics [...] People with high IQ commit much less crime [...] People with high IQ tend to be more physically fit. [...] People with high IQ have lower rates of heart disease, stroke, circulatory diseases, and diabetes. Doesn't look like there's much in the way of a tradeoff between high IQ and biological fitness.
  - lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
    First off correlation != causation. Secondly that's not the point. If we need to edit multiple genes, genes that are also tied to other traits, that's what's driving the chance of side effect, not the increased intelligence.
    - gwern 9y ago
      > First off correlation != causation. These are more powerful than the usual designs. For example, the correlation of intelligence with longevity survives a within-family sibling study which controls away all effects of family SES and shared environment https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyx168/4085882/Intelligence-and-allcause-mortality-in-the-6Day https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyx168/... You can also verify this using twin comparisons eg http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/07/24/ije.dyv112.full.pdf http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/07/24/ije.d... . More importantly, because so much of the underlying genetics of intelligence has been found and are covered by the GWAS's polygenic scores, it is possible to compare with the genetics for scores or hundreds of other diseases and measures of health: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Intelligen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Education The correlation is invariably negative: higher genetic potential for intelligence predicts lower disease and better health. > If we need to edit multiple genes, genes that are also tied to other traits, that's what's driving the chance of side effect, not the increased intelligence. Whether it is horizontal or vertical pleiotropy is irrelevant; it is irrelevant whether a particular SNP decreases risk of heart disease by increasing one's level of education so one knows to exercise regularly, or if it instead avoids a bad mutation which makes mitochondria slightly more inefficient thereby damaging the brain & heart. You want that SNP regardless of which causal pathway it is. If intelligence polygenic scores predict lower risk for disease and better health, then doing embryo selection or editing based on that will in fact do what it's supposed to.
apetresc 9y ago
> I don't think any sane person doubts intelligence is genetic and inheritable. Are you kidding? It's probably one of the most controversial statements you can make in the general population.

by sqeaky 9y ago

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago

Exactly. It's a fundamentally different problem to solve as compared to treating genetic illnesses and far more likely to involve some sort of trade off or side effects due to the number of genes involved. Considering that approximately half of measured intelligence variation isn't concluded to be genetic [0] it's my opinion you get a lot more bang for your buck focusing on social and environmental factors if you want to increase a populous's overall intellectual acumen.

sbierwagen 9y ago
>far more likely to involve some sort of trade off or side effects http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/04/myers-race-car-versus-the-general-fitness-factor/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/04/myers-race-car-versus-t... >People with high IQ tend to live longer. For example, a person with IQ 115 (85th percentile) is 20% more likely to survive to age 76 than an average person with IQ 100. [...] People with high IQ tend to be taller. This is interesting since height is often used as a measure of health and fitness during childhood, and since taller people get a bunch of advantages including being rated as more attractive and earning higher income. [...] People with high IQ may be more attractive. This is the conclusion of a meta-analysis that finds a positive correlation between intelligence and body symmetry, usually used as a proxy for attractiveness unaffected by things like hairstyle and cosmetics [...] People with high IQ commit much less crime [...] People with high IQ tend to be more physically fit. [...] People with high IQ have lower rates of heart disease, stroke, circulatory diseases, and diabetes. Doesn't look like there's much in the way of a tradeoff between high IQ and biological fitness.
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  First off correlation != causation. Secondly that's not the point. If we need to edit multiple genes, genes that are also tied to other traits, that's what's driving the chance of side effect, not the increased intelligence.
  - gwern 9y ago
    > First off correlation != causation. These are more powerful than the usual designs. For example, the correlation of intelligence with longevity survives a within-family sibling study which controls away all effects of family SES and shared environment https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyx168/4085882/Intelligence-and-allcause-mortality-in-the-6Day https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyx168/... You can also verify this using twin comparisons eg http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/07/24/ije.dyv112.full.pdf http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/07/24/ije.d... . More importantly, because so much of the underlying genetics of intelligence has been found and are covered by the GWAS's polygenic scores, it is possible to compare with the genetics for scores or hundreds of other diseases and measures of health: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Intelligen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_correlation#Education The correlation is invariably negative: higher genetic potential for intelligence predicts lower disease and better health. > If we need to edit multiple genes, genes that are also tied to other traits, that's what's driving the chance of side effect, not the increased intelligence. Whether it is horizontal or vertical pleiotropy is irrelevant; it is irrelevant whether a particular SNP decreases risk of heart disease by increasing one's level of education so one knows to exercise regularly, or if it instead avoids a bad mutation which makes mitochondria slightly more inefficient thereby damaging the brain & heart. You want that SNP regardless of which causal pathway it is. If intelligence polygenic scores predict lower risk for disease and better health, then doing embryo selection or editing based on that will in fact do what it's supposed to.

apetresc 9y ago

> I don't think any sane person doubts intelligence is genetic and inheritable. Are you kidding? It's probably one of the most controversial statements you can make in the general population.