5 ms·

It's great to see local and state government coming to a sensible deal with AirBnB and also with Uber. It should be a model for how to handle these things. Som

by sien 9y ago

It's great to see local and state government coming to a sensible deal with AirBnB and also with Uber. It should be a model for how to handle these things. Some light oversight and some tax, but not caving in to extant rent seekers like taxi plate owners and hotel chain owners.

Spivak 9y ago
I'm sorry, what? I get that Airbnb allows individuals to list their own properties but if we're being honest in a couple years the majority of Airbnb property owners are going to be precisely those existing rent seekers who have found a way to operate basically small expensive hotels in areas where commercial zoning is expensive. It's really isn't going to change much in the long run. It's just a de-facto commercial zoning grant to all residential areas. It's going to decrease the pool of available properties for long-term residents and raise the rents for those residents because every property manager is going to have to decide whether they think they could make more money by renting to an individual long-term or by just perpetually listing on Airbnb. This really isn't a victory for anybody but Airbnb and existing property managers.
- quuquuquu 9y ago
  wouldn't a halfway decent solution to this be to lower property tax, lessen zoning laws and fines, and otherwise do things that will bring down property/building prices? This would allow those who currently rent to be able to buy land, put a manufactured or temporary lodging on that land, and live there legally and cheaply, compared to a traditional home in a densely populated area. It seems in my opinion that supply is artificially constrained, and that is why Airbnb is so popular.
  - majjam 9y ago
    I disagree. People want to live in cities for the jobs and opportunities they offer. It is very difficult to increase the housing stock within cities even with the measures you list, this scarcity of housing is made worse because landlords buy up flats turning them into AirBnb properties, preventing people from living in them. This results in the hollowing out of cities so they become tourist resorts. Barcelona has had a particularly hard time with this.
    - sien 9y ago
      It's quite possible. Look at Texas housing affordability. Then look at the growth in population. Texas has lots of jobs and affordable housing. The Demographia Survey makes it clear. High restrictions to building. High cost. http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
    - quuquuquu 9y ago
      I do see your perspective, as my solution would lead to sprawl, long commute times, and increasing difficulty to find work outside of the city center. Unfortunately, while it is a solution to put more people into the city center, it becomes difficult to make sure that people who are purchasing property aren't doing it for rent-seeking. I think this problem will be tough to enforce/fix. I guess the only real solution is busting up office/industry centralization somehow!
      - isostatic 9y ago
        You'd think if anyone could decentralise work, it would be silicon valley, yet I understand rents in that area are as high as anything in manhattan.
  - branchless 9y ago
    This is utterly wrong. Taxing property encourages efficient use and keeps speculative hoarding down which reduces prices. Prices are set by credit, credit is set by the ability to service debt. Property taxes inhibit the ability to pay interest to banks on larger loans. AirBnB is popular because they are illegally avoiding taxes which makes right now for an easy win for rentiers. People doing airBnB don't have a higher calling to supply temporary accommodation to the masses. They are doing it for the money. If they could make more juggling fruit they would. And they push up prices for families looking to live near schools. edit: can't post below b/c HN hates people criticizing rentiers. Terrible example. Texas in which Dallas resides has the highest property taxes. Texas taxes land not labour more than most states.
    - sien 9y ago
      But then you've driven up the cost of the housing with tax. AirBnB hosts are paying property taxes and if AirBnB drives up value it's driving up property tax. Speculative hoarding only works if there is artificial scarcity driven by overly restrictive zoning. Speculating in Dallas hasn't resulted in high profits. Actually, editing in response to your comments. It looks like high property taxes in conjunction with low zoning regulation works. And that AirBnB has little to do with housing prices generally. That's an interesting point that comes out of this discussion. Rather than calling people 'leeches' and other names perhaps reasonable discussion could help.
      - kspaans 9y ago
        Higher taxes generally reduce property prices. As the carrying costs get higher, only those who can make efficient use of property (or who really want to live there) can justify the payments. In other words, it reduces the profits of income properties (be they long term rentals or short term rentals), which reduces the demand for the properties as a source of income, thus decreasing the cost (in spite of the higher taxes!) for people who want to live there. It also reduces speculative holding of property: again because the taxes paid while the speculator waits for prices to rise make it less likely that the speculator will profit, so they will go elsewhere looking for profits.
    - 9y ago
- yahna 9y ago
  Yup. A few people get rich, the rest of us get screwed because the rent-seekers are eating up supply.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    How about building more, if the demand exists? Yes, an actual dense city block, for instance.
    - branchless 9y ago
      Credit sets prices. Ask Ireland. Spain. Greece. Supply rocketed as did prices.
    - Tiktaalik 9y ago
      Simply adding more supply would be the perfect solution if creating new buildings was as easy as dropping one down in SimCity, but in real life there are physical factors (eg. number of available trades, build time) that limit the rate of supply creation. It is possible for demand side factors that cause spiking rent increases can keep up with the rate of supply creation. It is frustrating for a city government and its residents to go through the multi year effort to approve and build a new, dense building and only to have the number of units that reach the market scaled back by Airbnb hotel companies or even worse, capital gains focused investors that simply leave the apartments empty. Additionally Airbnb hosting investors negatively impact residents that may want to purchase homes in a city to live in, as they have to pay more due to competition with these investors that have access to higher rents via Airbnb. It is in these residents' best interests for the city to enact policies to discourage people from buying condos for exclusive Airbnb use.
- sien 9y ago
  And the vast number of consumers who get to get a cheaper place in many more areas than the could before. Literally millions of people. Saying that the only benefit of AirBnB goes to owners is like saying the only benefit of Ebay goes to sellers. You hit the bigger problem that has made housing incredibly expensive in the Bay Area, London, Sydney and other places. Overly restrictive Zoning.
  - Tiktaalik 9y ago
    Sometimes restrictive zoning exists for good reason. For example I'm sure there is no interest from Montreal residents in tearing down Old Montreal and building taller, and denser buildings. In such heritage areas Airbnb can have a real negative impact as tourist use can displace what would otherwise be a normal, functional neighbourhood.
  - eecc 9y ago
    "Consumers" who'll finally be able to consume Amsterdam's vibe, oblivious to the fact that it's become a big Disneyland since forever
- stale2002 9y ago
  "It's just a de-facto commercial zoning grant to all residential areas" Sure, thats kinda what it is. I'd argue that this isn't a bad thing though. The solution that cities should take is to try and lower the cost of commercial zones and commercial property. Airbnb and similar companies exist because these things are expensive and there is an arbitrage opportunity. The best solution is to make these things LESS expensive so that consumers can benefit. These silly laws on zoning, ect are extremely detrimental to consumers and should be removed. Airbnb and friends are just helping us push the needle so that these terrible laws are either eliminated or rendered de-facto unenforceable. If you think rent prices are too high, then let's make the government allow us to build more houses, so as to solve the root of the problem.
- branchless 9y ago
  I agree with you, just check out this map of all the leeches: http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-des-Neiges-Notre-Dame-de-Gr%C3%A2ce&filterEntireHomes=false&filterHighlyAvailable=false&filterRecentReviews=false&filterMultiListings=false#availability http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-de... And this is not even central. Hopefully they all get their fingers badly burned when rates rise, this tax comes in and equity drops. I'm very disappointed to hear this. Quebec is one of the last places in the Western world where rentiers have a hard time. Also for people saying these are "for a few weekends". Many AirBnb are not "a few weekends" they are a second home bought / mortgaged for the express purpose of permanently letting in out on airbnb and not paying tax. Here you go: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-airbnb-law-not-effective-2017-1.4135041 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-airbnb-law-not...
  - cgmg 9y ago
    You think the solution to high rent prices is to reduce the number of renters and restrict the supply of properties available for rent? Someone wasn't paying attention in econ class.
    - branchless 9y ago
      Econ 101 sucks. But you contradict yourself as econ 101 always states supply and demand. AirBnb is for short-term rentals only. It does not target people in Montreal looking for 12 month rolling tenancies. But it does reduce supply as landlords move from supplying 12 month places to airbnb. If we made life harder for airbnb supply would go up of rentals for families. Or landlords would sell up reducing prices and allowing families who presently rent to buy. Yes there are some people on hacker news who just want to get their 200k and not have to worry about commitment. I don't care about them, they can sort themselves out. I want access for families to local schools. The people offering this "service" just want to make a quick buck for very little work. They bring nothing to the community and make life harder for many families.
      - cgmg 9y ago
- cgmg 9y ago
  "This really isn't a victory for anybody but Airbnb and existing property managers." And the millions of people who use the service.

by sien 9y ago

Spivak 9y ago

I'm sorry, what? I get that Airbnb allows individuals to list their own properties but if we're being honest in a couple years the majority of Airbnb property owners are going to be precisely those existing rent seekers who have found a way to operate basically small expensive hotels in areas where commercial zoning is expensive. It's really isn't going to change much in the long run. It's just a de-facto commercial zoning grant to all residential areas. It's going to decrease the pool of available properties for long-term residents and raise the rents for those residents because every property manager is going to have to decide whether they think they could make more money by renting to an individual long-term or by just perpetually listing on Airbnb. This really isn't a victory for anybody but Airbnb and existing property managers.

quuquuquu 9y ago
wouldn't a halfway decent solution to this be to lower property tax, lessen zoning laws and fines, and otherwise do things that will bring down property/building prices? This would allow those who currently rent to be able to buy land, put a manufactured or temporary lodging on that land, and live there legally and cheaply, compared to a traditional home in a densely populated area. It seems in my opinion that supply is artificially constrained, and that is why Airbnb is so popular.
- majjam 9y ago
  I disagree. People want to live in cities for the jobs and opportunities they offer. It is very difficult to increase the housing stock within cities even with the measures you list, this scarcity of housing is made worse because landlords buy up flats turning them into AirBnb properties, preventing people from living in them. This results in the hollowing out of cities so they become tourist resorts. Barcelona has had a particularly hard time with this.
  - sien 9y ago
    It's quite possible. Look at Texas housing affordability. Then look at the growth in population. Texas has lots of jobs and affordable housing. The Demographia Survey makes it clear. High restrictions to building. High cost. http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
  - quuquuquu 9y ago
    I do see your perspective, as my solution would lead to sprawl, long commute times, and increasing difficulty to find work outside of the city center. Unfortunately, while it is a solution to put more people into the city center, it becomes difficult to make sure that people who are purchasing property aren't doing it for rent-seeking. I think this problem will be tough to enforce/fix. I guess the only real solution is busting up office/industry centralization somehow!
    - isostatic 9y ago
      You'd think if anyone could decentralise work, it would be silicon valley, yet I understand rents in that area are as high as anything in manhattan.
- branchless 9y ago
  This is utterly wrong. Taxing property encourages efficient use and keeps speculative hoarding down which reduces prices. Prices are set by credit, credit is set by the ability to service debt. Property taxes inhibit the ability to pay interest to banks on larger loans. AirBnB is popular because they are illegally avoiding taxes which makes right now for an easy win for rentiers. People doing airBnB don't have a higher calling to supply temporary accommodation to the masses. They are doing it for the money. If they could make more juggling fruit they would. And they push up prices for families looking to live near schools. edit: can't post below b/c HN hates people criticizing rentiers. Terrible example. Texas in which Dallas resides has the highest property taxes. Texas taxes land not labour more than most states.
  - sien 9y ago
    But then you've driven up the cost of the housing with tax. AirBnB hosts are paying property taxes and if AirBnB drives up value it's driving up property tax. Speculative hoarding only works if there is artificial scarcity driven by overly restrictive zoning. Speculating in Dallas hasn't resulted in high profits. Actually, editing in response to your comments. It looks like high property taxes in conjunction with low zoning regulation works. And that AirBnB has little to do with housing prices generally. That's an interesting point that comes out of this discussion. Rather than calling people 'leeches' and other names perhaps reasonable discussion could help.
    - kspaans 9y ago
      Higher taxes generally reduce property prices. As the carrying costs get higher, only those who can make efficient use of property (or who really want to live there) can justify the payments. In other words, it reduces the profits of income properties (be they long term rentals or short term rentals), which reduces the demand for the properties as a source of income, thus decreasing the cost (in spite of the higher taxes!) for people who want to live there. It also reduces speculative holding of property: again because the taxes paid while the speculator waits for prices to rise make it less likely that the speculator will profit, so they will go elsewhere looking for profits.
  - 9y ago
yahna 9y ago
Yup. A few people get rich, the rest of us get screwed because the rent-seekers are eating up supply.
- nine_k 9y ago
  How about building more, if the demand exists? Yes, an actual dense city block, for instance.
  - branchless 9y ago
    Credit sets prices. Ask Ireland. Spain. Greece. Supply rocketed as did prices.
  - Tiktaalik 9y ago
    Simply adding more supply would be the perfect solution if creating new buildings was as easy as dropping one down in SimCity, but in real life there are physical factors (eg. number of available trades, build time) that limit the rate of supply creation. It is possible for demand side factors that cause spiking rent increases can keep up with the rate of supply creation. It is frustrating for a city government and its residents to go through the multi year effort to approve and build a new, dense building and only to have the number of units that reach the market scaled back by Airbnb hotel companies or even worse, capital gains focused investors that simply leave the apartments empty. Additionally Airbnb hosting investors negatively impact residents that may want to purchase homes in a city to live in, as they have to pay more due to competition with these investors that have access to higher rents via Airbnb. It is in these residents' best interests for the city to enact policies to discourage people from buying condos for exclusive Airbnb use.
sien 9y ago
And the vast number of consumers who get to get a cheaper place in many more areas than the could before. Literally millions of people. Saying that the only benefit of AirBnB goes to owners is like saying the only benefit of Ebay goes to sellers. You hit the bigger problem that has made housing incredibly expensive in the Bay Area, London, Sydney and other places. Overly restrictive Zoning.
- Tiktaalik 9y ago
  Sometimes restrictive zoning exists for good reason. For example I'm sure there is no interest from Montreal residents in tearing down Old Montreal and building taller, and denser buildings. In such heritage areas Airbnb can have a real negative impact as tourist use can displace what would otherwise be a normal, functional neighbourhood.
- eecc 9y ago
  "Consumers" who'll finally be able to consume Amsterdam's vibe, oblivious to the fact that it's become a big Disneyland since forever
stale2002 9y ago
"It's just a de-facto commercial zoning grant to all residential areas" Sure, thats kinda what it is. I'd argue that this isn't a bad thing though. The solution that cities should take is to try and lower the cost of commercial zones and commercial property. Airbnb and similar companies exist because these things are expensive and there is an arbitrage opportunity. The best solution is to make these things LESS expensive so that consumers can benefit. These silly laws on zoning, ect are extremely detrimental to consumers and should be removed. Airbnb and friends are just helping us push the needle so that these terrible laws are either eliminated or rendered de-facto unenforceable. If you think rent prices are too high, then let's make the government allow us to build more houses, so as to solve the root of the problem.
branchless 9y ago
I agree with you, just check out this map of all the leeches: http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-des-Neiges-Notre-Dame-de-Gr%C3%A2ce&filterEntireHomes=false&filterHighlyAvailable=false&filterRecentReviews=false&filterMultiListings=false#availability http://insideairbnb.com/montreal/?neighbourhood=C%C3%B4te-de... And this is not even central. Hopefully they all get their fingers badly burned when rates rise, this tax comes in and equity drops. I'm very disappointed to hear this. Quebec is one of the last places in the Western world where rentiers have a hard time. Also for people saying these are "for a few weekends". Many AirBnb are not "a few weekends" they are a second home bought / mortgaged for the express purpose of permanently letting in out on airbnb and not paying tax. Here you go: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-airbnb-law-not-effective-2017-1.4135041 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-airbnb-law-not...
- cgmg 9y ago
  You think the solution to high rent prices is to reduce the number of renters and restrict the supply of properties available for rent? Someone wasn't paying attention in econ class.
  - branchless 9y ago
    Econ 101 sucks. But you contradict yourself as econ 101 always states supply and demand. AirBnb is for short-term rentals only. It does not target people in Montreal looking for 12 month rolling tenancies. But it does reduce supply as landlords move from supplying 12 month places to airbnb. If we made life harder for airbnb supply would go up of rentals for families. Or landlords would sell up reducing prices and allowing families who presently rent to buy. Yes there are some people on hacker news who just want to get their 200k and not have to worry about commitment. I don't care about them, they can sort themselves out. I want access for families to local schools. The people offering this "service" just want to make a quick buck for very little work. They bring nothing to the community and make life harder for many families.
    - cgmg 9y ago
cgmg 9y ago
"This really isn't a victory for anybody but Airbnb and existing property managers." And the millions of people who use the service.