3 ms·

Maybe I'm just used to smart folks in SV that call themselves web designers but know tons of JS in addition to their Illustrator/Fireworks/PS magic.. I find th

Maybe I'm just used to smart folks in SV that call themselves web designers but know tons of JS in addition to their Illustrator/Fireworks/PS magic.. I find that his quote about "completely over my head" being a little shocking.. he's written a book on DOM scripting and another on Ajax. If he can't grok these JS APIs I'm a bit worried.

telemachos 16y ago
Since I first learned JavaScript from his book on DOM scripting, I had exactly the same thought. Perhaps he's using exaggerated modesty to get himself (and the book) off the hook?
asnyder 16y ago
It would seem by your definition they're not designers. The fact that they know "tons of JS" would imply they have at least knowledge of basic programming concepts, which is something I would not want, nor expect a web designer to know. The muddle of knowledge that's expected of SV designers, and other designers in general is a result of the fragmented and confused state the web was/is in, IMO. Frankly, with the current toolsets available, there's no reason a web designer should have to focus on anything other than their design, and pass that off to someone that's skilled in the programming aspect to get their vision functioning. Personally I'd rather hire someone along those lines, rather than a jack-of-all trades.
- rimantas 16y ago
  That's very very wrong thinking. All the best designers who were moving the web forward few recent years are also good with coding: Dan Cederholm, Douglas Bowman, Jason Santa Maria, Dunstan Orchard, etc. Remember, design is "how it works", and you cannot do a good design without the knowledge of the surrounding parts. This knowledge helps to bring the most of your main area of expertise. Hire a designer who knows nothing about limitations of the platform, hire a programmer who cannot tell cyan from blue and you will spend the majority of your time trying to fit square pegs in round holes and acting as a translator between the two with little success. And let's not forget that with the current move to more and more interactive designs doing static mockups makes less and less sense. There is some truth in "CSS is the new Photoshop". A designer who knows how to code that nice menu effect with css transition is highly preferable to the one who does not. Saves time and money too.
  - asnyder 16y ago
    While I can recognize there designers that are the exception, it's silly to think and expect your designers to have this ability. The fact of the matter is that most don't. The same use true for developers. By and large the ones that do are self-motivate individuals running their own startups, or participating on a similar level. I could easily say that it's preferable to have someone understand the core facets of every part of any field, but the truth is that you're lucky if you can find someone that has the core competencies in any specialized area. I've successfully separated our designers from the code that implements their designs for the past 5 years and have got only positive results. The designers don't need to learn anything else, or fumble with code, they enjoy living in Photoshop/fireworks and passing it off. Developers shouldn't be doing any interpreting, the designs should be such they can clearly see what things should be. Nobody said anything about static-mock ups, I said they should be focused on design, not coding. There are plenty of tools available that can allow them to mock-up an effect without coding. I don't know what idealized world you live in, but sometimes you have to accept the situation and work with it. In any event, we can agree to disagree. Since we clearly have 2 different sets of opinions and 2 different sets of work experience history.
tel 16y ago
It's also probably not at all true, but it does help him to sympathize with his target audience. Would The [JavaScript] APIs in HTML5 are very powerful, but knowing that their neither relevant to or comprehensible by who I'm expecting (or fear) you may very well be we're just not going to go into any further detail right now. really have been a better line?

telemachos 16y ago

Since I first learned JavaScript from his book on DOM scripting, I had exactly the same thought. Perhaps he's using exaggerated modesty to get himself (and the book) off the hook?

asnyder 16y ago

It would seem by your definition they're not designers. The fact that they know "tons of JS" would imply they have at least knowledge of basic programming concepts, which is something I would not want, nor expect a web designer to know. The muddle of knowledge that's expected of SV designers, and other designers in general is a result of the fragmented and confused state the web was/is in, IMO. Frankly, with the current toolsets available, there's no reason a web designer should have to focus on anything other than their design, and pass that off to someone that's skilled in the programming aspect to get their vision functioning. Personally I'd rather hire someone along those lines, rather than a jack-of-all trades.

rimantas 16y ago
That's very very wrong thinking. All the best designers who were moving the web forward few recent years are also good with coding: Dan Cederholm, Douglas Bowman, Jason Santa Maria, Dunstan Orchard, etc. Remember, design is "how it works", and you cannot do a good design without the knowledge of the surrounding parts. This knowledge helps to bring the most of your main area of expertise. Hire a designer who knows nothing about limitations of the platform, hire a programmer who cannot tell cyan from blue and you will spend the majority of your time trying to fit square pegs in round holes and acting as a translator between the two with little success. And let's not forget that with the current move to more and more interactive designs doing static mockups makes less and less sense. There is some truth in "CSS is the new Photoshop". A designer who knows how to code that nice menu effect with css transition is highly preferable to the one who does not. Saves time and money too.
- asnyder 16y ago
  While I can recognize there designers that are the exception, it's silly to think and expect your designers to have this ability. The fact of the matter is that most don't. The same use true for developers. By and large the ones that do are self-motivate individuals running their own startups, or participating on a similar level. I could easily say that it's preferable to have someone understand the core facets of every part of any field, but the truth is that you're lucky if you can find someone that has the core competencies in any specialized area. I've successfully separated our designers from the code that implements their designs for the past 5 years and have got only positive results. The designers don't need to learn anything else, or fumble with code, they enjoy living in Photoshop/fireworks and passing it off. Developers shouldn't be doing any interpreting, the designs should be such they can clearly see what things should be. Nobody said anything about static-mock ups, I said they should be focused on design, not coding. There are plenty of tools available that can allow them to mock-up an effect without coding. I don't know what idealized world you live in, but sometimes you have to accept the situation and work with it. In any event, we can agree to disagree. Since we clearly have 2 different sets of opinions and 2 different sets of work experience history.

tel 16y ago

It's also probably not at all true, but it does help him to sympathize with his target audience. Would The [JavaScript] APIs in HTML5 are very powerful, but knowing that their neither relevant to or comprehensible by who I'm expecting (or fear) you may very well be we're just not going to go into any further detail right now. really have been a better line?