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Why do I need an alternative to Android? I can always fork an older version if it starts to restrict free speech.

by jhasse 9y ago

Brakenshire 9y ago
This is closer to an existing nexus of expertise in FOSS, because it is a Linux distribution, whereas Android is something different, and has only ever been maintained by Google, more or less behind closed doors. A fork of Android would be much more likely to die a death than a functional mobile Linux OS.
- jhasse 9y ago
  > A fork of Android would be much more likely to die a death than a functional mobile Linux OS. Why wouldn't a fork of Android be a functional mobile Linux OS?
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    Android is running on top of a Java VM, with completely independent UI components. It's a long way from a traditional Linux userland.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      That's true, but I won't go so far and call it non-functional. Most of Sailfish's UI components are proprietary, which is a more severe issue IMHO.
      - Brakenshire 9y ago
        Ah, I was trying to distinguish it from Android on the basis of 'Linux', rather than on the basis of 'functional'. Functional was meant to contrast with the existing state of Linux on mobile, i.e. if we could get a full Linux userspace working well on mobile, that would be better than relying on Android.
        jhasse 9y ago
        Let's see what the Librem 5 comes up with ;)
        Brakenshire 9y ago
        Yes, I'm looking at supporting that. It's a bit of a pity they seem to be downplaying Android app support. I think they will need that to be functional in the short/medium term. From a user's perspective, it would be good to commit to Anbox support, but perhaps they're already biting off enough for them to chew!
pjmlp 9y ago
It won't help the people buying actual devices.
- jhasse 9y ago
  Neither does Sailfish though.
flukus 9y ago
Because it's slow, bloated and tied to google. I've got a super computer in my pocket, there's no excuse to be so slow and jittery, it's been 20 years now, it's time to give up on the "java will be as fast as c one day" dream. Most apps are glorified list views yet they still take several seconds to start. There's a tonne of google crapware that comes with every phone that can't be removed. Google has been promising to split this out of the OS for a quite few years now yet I don't see any progress. This is the only issue that forking would solve (while creating others). The development story is the worst I've ever encountered. Untestable God-classes that every activity has to inherit from. Awful convoluted build tools that require and IDE to use (they aren't documented). A hideous xml based UI library that pretends it's as simple as HTML but makes things more complicated. The list goes on. No one does security updates. Even googles flagship phones will only get 3 years of security updates at best. If you buy a mid-range phone you can expect a year if you're lucky. I refuse to believe this is the best we can do.
- jhasse 9y ago
  > No one does security updates. Even googles flagship phones will only get 3 years of security updates at best. If you buy a mid-range phone you can expect a year if you're lucky. I agree, but I don't see how Sailfish fixes these points. For example I can't buy any phones with Sailfish pre-installed and 3 years of security updates guaranteed. The best thing to fix the update problem would be open-source drivers IMHO. And Sailfish isn't about that, it uses the same proprietary drivers as Android. > The development story is the worst I've ever encountered. Untestable God-classes that every activity has to inherit from. [...] A hideous xml based UI library that pretends it's as simple as HTML but makes things more complicated. The list goes on. I have developed an Android app and agree! It definitely is awful. But due to the large community you could achieve quite a lot, without having tested it I would assume that developing feature-rich apps for Sailfish is harder right now. > Awful convoluted build tools that require and IDE to use (they aren't documented). AFAIK Sailfish uses Qmake and QtCreator which are even worse IMHO. Regarding the documentation Android has lots of StackOverflow answers going for it. Would be interesting to know the opinion of someone who has developed an app for both systems though.
  - 9y ago
zeep 9y ago
Android won't even let me use my SD card as I wish and Google disabled ad-hoc WiFi... it's getting pretty bad already...

Why do I need an alternative to Android? I can always fork an older version if it starts to restrict free speech.

by jhasse 9y ago

Why do I need an alternative to Android? I can always fork an older version if it starts to restrict free speech.

This is closer to an existing nexus of expertise in FOSS, because it is a Linux distribution, whereas Android is something different, and has only ever been maintained by Google, more or less behind closed doors. A fork of Android would be much more likely to die a death than a functional mobile Linux OS.

jhasse 9y ago
> A fork of Android would be much more likely to die a death than a functional mobile Linux OS. Why wouldn't a fork of Android be a functional mobile Linux OS?
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Android is running on top of a Java VM, with completely independent UI components. It's a long way from a traditional Linux userland.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    That's true, but I won't go so far and call it non-functional. Most of Sailfish's UI components are proprietary, which is a more severe issue IMHO.
    - Brakenshire 9y ago
      Ah, I was trying to distinguish it from Android on the basis of 'Linux', rather than on the basis of 'functional'. Functional was meant to contrast with the existing state of Linux on mobile, i.e. if we could get a full Linux userspace working well on mobile, that would be better than relying on Android.
      - jhasse 9y ago
        Let's see what the Librem 5 comes up with ;)
        Brakenshire 9y ago
        Yes, I'm looking at supporting that. It's a bit of a pity they seem to be downplaying Android app support. I think they will need that to be functional in the short/medium term. From a user's perspective, it would be good to commit to Anbox support, but perhaps they're already biting off enough for them to chew!

pjmlp 9y ago

It won't help the people buying actual devices.

jhasse 9y ago
Neither does Sailfish though.

flukus 9y ago

Because it's slow, bloated and tied to google. I've got a super computer in my pocket, there's no excuse to be so slow and jittery, it's been 20 years now, it's time to give up on the "java will be as fast as c one day" dream. Most apps are glorified list views yet they still take several seconds to start. There's a tonne of google crapware that comes with every phone that can't be removed. Google has been promising to split this out of the OS for a quite few years now yet I don't see any progress. This is the only issue that forking would solve (while creating others). The development story is the worst I've ever encountered. Untestable God-classes that every activity has to inherit from. Awful convoluted build tools that require and IDE to use (they aren't documented). A hideous xml based UI library that pretends it's as simple as HTML but makes things more complicated. The list goes on. No one does security updates. Even googles flagship phones will only get 3 years of security updates at best. If you buy a mid-range phone you can expect a year if you're lucky. I refuse to believe this is the best we can do.

jhasse 9y ago
> No one does security updates. Even googles flagship phones will only get 3 years of security updates at best. If you buy a mid-range phone you can expect a year if you're lucky. I agree, but I don't see how Sailfish fixes these points. For example I can't buy any phones with Sailfish pre-installed and 3 years of security updates guaranteed. The best thing to fix the update problem would be open-source drivers IMHO. And Sailfish isn't about that, it uses the same proprietary drivers as Android. > The development story is the worst I've ever encountered. Untestable God-classes that every activity has to inherit from. [...] A hideous xml based UI library that pretends it's as simple as HTML but makes things more complicated. The list goes on. I have developed an Android app and agree! It definitely is awful. But due to the large community you could achieve quite a lot, without having tested it I would assume that developing feature-rich apps for Sailfish is harder right now. > Awful convoluted build tools that require and IDE to use (they aren't documented). AFAIK Sailfish uses Qmake and QtCreator which are even worse IMHO. Regarding the documentation Android has lots of StackOverflow answers going for it. Would be interesting to know the opinion of someone who has developed an app for both systems though.
- 9y ago

zeep 9y ago

Android won't even let me use my SD card as I wish and Google disabled ad-hoc WiFi... it's getting pretty bad already...