7 ms·
North Korea Is Not Crazy
- camillomiller 9y agoI find easy to understand how the Leadership can subjugate a poor and hungry population, even making them believe in the divinity of their ruler. What I don't understand is how North Korea is able to keep aligned people educated enough to direct and operate this kind of actions. The skills required to carry out these attacks, for example, would make someone very valuable on a Western market. At the same time these people have access to the outside world, they have to know that there is a better opportunity for them outside. So why walk the line of the party? A lot of these attaks are probably the work of mercenary groups, but there must be key IT figures inside the regime at least managing these efforts.
- rtpg 9y agoBecause you like not getting shot? Even more concretely, people working in the government likely live comfortably enough. It's also not exactly simple to leave even if you want to. You can get to China, but they'll probably send you back. SK might want you but crossing the DMZ is tricky. I think there are also restrictions on movements within the country. Imagine if you work in some random city in the middle of the country. Good luck getting to a border, let alone crossing it. And perhaps there aren't better opportunities outside. Imagine being a NK sysadmin. You defect to South Korea, you probably won't be able to enter the IT market easily (no "real" diploma + realities of the job market) so you'll end up doing part-time at a supermarket or something. Not to mention that you'll probably suffer discrimination due to your background as well. Meanwhile you sacrificed your family. The trade-off is not obvious at all.
- vacri 9y agoSurely the SK government would be interested in employing an ex-NK sysadmin, who will have intimate knowledge of NK networks?
- jlgaddis 9y agoDebriefing/deposing them, sure. Employing them, I doubt it. You can't give them much in the way of access or privileges, lest they turn out to be a spy.
- helloindia 9y agoPatriotism too.
- legulere 9y agoAlso when you're outside NK, what is going to happen to your family and friends? Guilt by association is used regularly in NK
- test1235 9y agoThey have their "3 generations of punishment" which punishes all those biologically related. http://www.bbnpov.com/?p=904 http://www.bbnpov.com/?p=904
- LoSboccacc 9y agoWell also there's punishment for all your relatives and they aren't beyond running assassinations in foreign countries for high profile targets
- quuquuquu 9y agoThe sad thing is that so much evidence for this exists that it isn't even funny to me anymore. NK will actually and literally torture your famili and attempt to kill you, to the best of its ability, wherever you are on this earth. All because you were born North Korean. Just wow.
- SkyMarshal 9y ago>(no "real" diploma + realities of the job market) Plus suspicions of being a NK mole.
- aaron695 9y agoMany issues with this comment. > even making them believe in the divinity of their ruler. I think this is more mythology that the silly westerners believe. Many people across the world have "skills that would make someone very valuable on a Western market." But they don't all just up and leave. Why?... Home is hard to leave forever. Also do they have good English/European skills, if not then no they would not be considered valuable in the west. Plus who gets let out of the country. Bomb makers? Not really a valuable skill in the West.
- vacri 9y ago> I think this is more mythology that the silly westerners believe. ... > Plus who gets let out of the country. Bomb makers?
- aaron695 9y agoWe are talking about people with high (criminal) skills getting out of the country and defecting. One assumes they don't let their computer hackers out. So with relation to the article you're left with what that's a skill of value in the west? Forging money? That's easy when you're a government. Drugs? Once again easy. Their most skilled are probably OT their waitresses in their restraunts across the world(they also study the arts while in country, they are quite skilled) they defect occasionally. I pitty their family back home for those who defect :(
- vacri 9y agoYou chide others for buying into some western myths about north korea, then buy straight back into them yourself. As a simple example, Wikipedia has a list of 122 merchant ships registered in North Korea[1]. Do you really think that these ships are crewed by counterfeiters, bomb-makers, and those with 'high criminal skills'? [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_merchant_ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_merchant_...
- atomical 9y agoThere are concentration camps in North Korea. And your family with go with you if you step out of line. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoeryong_concentration_camp
- sgift 9y agoI think - in addition to the points already made - that one shouldn't forget that the "upper echelon" of dictatorships like NK usually lives in good conditions (especially compared to the rest of the population). That's one of the reasons import sanctions are often targeted against luxury goods.
- maruhan2 9y agoOn the flip side, it can be hard to believe that there are North Korean higher ups that did escape risking death, when in their home country they are at least not going to die. There are North Korean escapees residing in South Korea when they already had a high status back in North Korea. Fellow peers that tried to escape with him died.
- crdoconnor 9y agoThe answer to a lot of 'mysteries' about North Korea is that it's a lot wealthier than we've been led to believe. Not first world by any standard but a lot of people there have an ok standard of living, especially in Pyongyang. They also probably feel a mite threatened by the nukes that have been pointed at them since the 60s. There are still a lot of defections though.
- jsnathan 9y agoKnowing that you have less than people somewhere far away isn't necessarily a strong motivation to desire more. The one's wanting to flee the regime are those who are oppressed by it. That isn't everyone though. There are always many people who find the status quo perfectly tolerable, else it would not be stable. Generally, most people only care if they have more than their neighbors (re: materialism) and about their standing in the community they are embedded in (re: ideology). This creates a self-reinforcing effect. For example, while most people will say that they [edit: the NK elite] are worried about their families being hurt, I would argue they are more primarily worried that their families and friends will disapprove. Sure there is a real risk to dissenters, but you don't start out as a full-blown dissenter; you start out embedded in the society with maybe some innate doubts about certain things. It's the internalization of the projected negative reactions of those around you (basically your 'conscience') that makes people unlikely to ever allow themselves to mentally oppose the regime, if they have no strong incentives to do so (i.e. suffering unbearable hardships and oppression - and again this is often judged relative to what your neighbors are going through). As a government scientist in NK you are part of the elite, so you're a pretty good position. You're essentially in equilibrium with your environment and I would imagine something would have to come in and shatter that equilibrium before you would consider going against everyone around you.
- michaelmrose 9y agoIf you can't simultaneously move your entire family including everyone from grandparents to grandchildren anyone left behind will probably be sent to a concentration camp to be worked/starved to death.
- emmelaich 9y agoWith the help of Iran, China, Russia. Maybe more. The purpose is to keep the USA off balance.
- stesch 9y agoThey have family.
- camillomiller 9y agoIt can't be a general nor the only explanation for such a low defection rate.
- thesehands 9y agolow rate of successful defection. Who's to say what the rate of failed defections is.
- dogma1138 9y agoAbout 1500 people successfully defect each year to the south these days (there have been over 30,000 defectors to SK so far). Probably a few 1000's more escape the work camps in China and Russia and assimilate locally. This is a situation where all parties have no incentives to make defection public, in fact their incentive is the complete opposite. South Korea will not publicize defection because of fear retaliation both against any familial ties the defectors might have and against SK proper. The North won't because it would make them look weak, for the North even unsuccessful defections will be hushed since why would anyone want to defect from Paradise?
- lostmsu 9y agoWhere did you get the number of escaped people from work camps?
- dogma1138 9y agoThats more of a conjecture but as NK sends between 50 and 150K forced laborers abroad each year primarily to the Russian evergreen it wouldn't surprise me if at least just as many of them defect as those who defect across a fairly well guarded border into SK.
- malloryerik 9y agoIf it's North Koreans doing the work from outside of their country, they're certainly being minded by different bureaus/agencies, and their families are effectively hostages inside of North Korea, and would likely be punished if the hackers defected.
- eponeponepon 9y agoThe "educated" are subject to as much state indoctrination as everyone else in their early years - following party instructions and ideology is, for many, embedded at the level of base instinct. It's also worth remembering the multi-generation punishments administered by the regime - some mid-ranking officer whose education leads him to realise how the place works and to question his orders still has family outside the armed forces, and knows they will all be imprisoned or executed if he falters.
- scrollaway 9y agoRealistically, those who have a chance to get out for a better life do get out. But KJU just makes sure that his coalition is treated well (at least compared to what their alternative would be) and that any betrayal of any kind is swiftly and brutally dealt with. Which reminds me... recommended reading: The Dictator's Handbook by de Mesquita.
- mason55 9y agoSecond "The Dictator's Handbook". One of the few books I've read that has given me a completely new outlook on the world.
- Houshalter 9y agoIt's a multipolar trap. Everyone hates the system (except maybe the people at the top, and even they might prefer the country they rule over not be a poor hellhole, in theory.) But no one can do anything without getting themselves executed (or worse...) One of the scariest things about 1984 to me wasn't the weird specific details of that dystopia. It's that the system was completely stable. The system became so controlling and surveilling that revolution wasn't even remotely plausible. 1984's governments could go on for a thousand years until all the resources of the Earth were used up. Maybe it could keep going beyond that. Real authoritarian regimes don't seem to last forever. Although usually it's divisions within the ruling class, not real revolution from the bottom. Which is why monarchies like North Korea's tend to be more stable, because there's a clear line of succession and less of a power struggle when the old leader dies. And modern technology enables a lot of stuff that wasn't possible in the past. Extreme levels of surveillance, automated militaries and law enforcement, and anti-aging tech so the leaders never die, nuclear weapons so external invasion is impossible, etc.
- abhi3 9y ago> The skills required to carry out these attacks, for example, would make someone very valuable on a Western market. I'm sure being part of the top 0.001% of a small poor country with power and prestige unimaginable to those living in countries with rule of law would any day beat making six-figure in San Francisco and complaining about human feces on the street. I mean in the United States or any other similar democracy even the President is treated like shit by the opposition, media, and common folks. Watch this 20-second video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRMI4Z7ri8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRMI4Z7ri8A
- chongli 9y agoSo why walk the line of the party? This is the central question of Orwell's 1984. The book goes a long way to create a setting where it's believable that people would knowingly walk the party line. It's a mixture of torture (and the threat thereof), distraction, disinformation, and rewards for the few near the top.
- codecamper 9y agoI did not have the time to read the whole article, but I searched for "nucl" and did not find reference to nuclear weapons... so I can add this: That apparently the US has been threatening a nuclear attack on North Korea since Eisenhower days. How can the US be surprised that this country wants nuclear weapons of it's own?
- revmoo 9y agoCan we please not post garbage sites with popups and useless social icons that overlap the actual content? Seriously, come on guys.
- ourmandave 9y agoThis article is a history lesson on NK's past and current state sponsored spying and cyber attacks and ends with advice to companies, banks, et. al. to stay vigilant to all sorts of future f*ckery. Curse you Pyongyang! If it weren't for you I wouldn't need a firewall or security plan at all.