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"How does that help you provide a better educational experience for the students?" It helps you identify which schools are in need of special attention and req

by cgmg 9y ago

"How does that help you provide a better educational experience for the students?" It helps you identify which schools are in need of special attention and require structural changes.

repsilat 9y ago
With some competitive pressure from school choice at the margins, coupled with per-student funding, it would also provide incentives for schools to improve.
- jacalata 9y ago
  In practice, it seems to create a black hole where a school that serves a population that isn't good at tests (e.g disabled kids, non English speakers) gets low scores so everyone who could get a good score leaves and then the school does even worse and gets less funding and then the school is failing and the "fix" is to fire the administration, spend money bringing in new staff who don't know the area or the students, and expect that to solve the systemic issues revealed by poor test scores. To avoid this, schools are indeed incentivized to improve - for instance, by directing low performing students to stay home on the day of the test, or by discouraging students with learning difficulties from attending at all.
  - bonesss 9y ago
    This effect is visible in urban centers as well. Public education is supposed to be a leg up into the world for everyone, not the start of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    That means we are not using the tests results correctly though. Knowing there is a problem is the first step in fixing it - but it doesn't tell you what the next step is.
- CryptoFascist 9y ago
  The idea that competitive pressure improves school performance is one of those simple, obvious, and wrong Econ 101 ideas.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    Do you have evidence to back up your claim that it is "wrong"?
  - repsilat 9y ago
    Even if the bad schools can't respond to incentives to improve, allowing students to choose good schools over bad ones naturally increases utility.
    - wahern 9y ago
      No it doesn't. It could easily result in less social utility by promoting self-segregation and the concentration of funding into high achievement schools where the marginal utility of each additional dollar is substantially diminished at the outset. The reason why kids from poor families do poorly in school is also the reason why those families are _least_ likely to be selective in their choice of schools. These are not independent phenomena. So unless the only utility function that matters is freedom to choose your school, approaches like vouchers are unlikely to improve things and could easily not only perpetuate but exacerbate achievement gaps and derivative social issues, like crime.
      - cgmg 9y ago
        The evidence indicates that voucher systems improve test scores, graduation rates, and other aspects of both public and private schools, not just the latter: http://educationnext.org/rising-tide/ http://educationnext.org/rising-tide/
        wahern 9y ago
        15 years later, http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/28/vouchers-not-improve-student-achievement-stanford-researcher-finds/ http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/28/vouchers-not-improve-stu... I wouldn't expect charter schools to actually change much because the evidence is very clear that the most important factor in achievement, overwhelmingly, is the child's home environment.

by cgmg 9y ago

"How does that help you provide a better educational experience for the students?" It helps you identify which schools are in need of special attention and require structural changes.

repsilat 9y ago

With some competitive pressure from school choice at the margins, coupled with per-student funding, it would also provide incentives for schools to improve.

jacalata 9y ago
In practice, it seems to create a black hole where a school that serves a population that isn't good at tests (e.g disabled kids, non English speakers) gets low scores so everyone who could get a good score leaves and then the school does even worse and gets less funding and then the school is failing and the "fix" is to fire the administration, spend money bringing in new staff who don't know the area or the students, and expect that to solve the systemic issues revealed by poor test scores. To avoid this, schools are indeed incentivized to improve - for instance, by directing low performing students to stay home on the day of the test, or by discouraging students with learning difficulties from attending at all.
- bonesss 9y ago
  This effect is visible in urban centers as well. Public education is supposed to be a leg up into the world for everyone, not the start of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
- bluGill 9y ago
  That means we are not using the tests results correctly though. Knowing there is a problem is the first step in fixing it - but it doesn't tell you what the next step is.
CryptoFascist 9y ago
The idea that competitive pressure improves school performance is one of those simple, obvious, and wrong Econ 101 ideas.
- cgmg 9y ago
  Do you have evidence to back up your claim that it is "wrong"?
- repsilat 9y ago
  Even if the bad schools can't respond to incentives to improve, allowing students to choose good schools over bad ones naturally increases utility.
  - wahern 9y ago
    No it doesn't. It could easily result in less social utility by promoting self-segregation and the concentration of funding into high achievement schools where the marginal utility of each additional dollar is substantially diminished at the outset. The reason why kids from poor families do poorly in school is also the reason why those families are _least_ likely to be selective in their choice of schools. These are not independent phenomena. So unless the only utility function that matters is freedom to choose your school, approaches like vouchers are unlikely to improve things and could easily not only perpetuate but exacerbate achievement gaps and derivative social issues, like crime.
    - cgmg 9y ago
      The evidence indicates that voucher systems improve test scores, graduation rates, and other aspects of both public and private schools, not just the latter: http://educationnext.org/rising-tide/ http://educationnext.org/rising-tide/
      - wahern 9y ago
        15 years later, http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/28/vouchers-not-improve-student-achievement-stanford-researcher-finds/ http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/28/vouchers-not-improve-stu... I wouldn't expect charter schools to actually change much because the evidence is very clear that the most important factor in achievement, overwhelmingly, is the child's home environment.