4 ms·

Is the degradation of US public schools really due to extensive testing?

by cgmg 9y ago

tyingq 9y ago
I believe the idea is that the entire curriculum is then centered around teaching the test, versus what kids actually need. As to whether that's the primary issue, no idea.
- cgmg 9y ago
  Do you really think eliminating standardised tests would improve the education system?
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    School-funding and even whether a school closes or not is tied to these tests, so there would be some work involved in replacing that aspect of standardized testing in US schools as well.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    There's an excluded middle, in that statement. De-emphasizing the importance may be an option.
    - cgmg 9y ago
      Fair point. Let me rephrase the question: Do you really think reducing standardised tests would improve the education system? If so, what objective evidence can you provide for this belief?
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - closeparen 9y ago
        If you measure it less, you'll have a weaker argument for how the education system is doing! Your comment is precisely the problem: objective metrics will always support their proponents' arguments for more measurement, while any upsides to a lessened objective grading will be difficult to show because they'll involve subjective assessment or less assessment. Do not confuse the investigator's convenience in accessing a truth value for the truth value itself.
      - andrewem 9y ago
        That argument has been made many times and in great detail. See for instance the work of Diane Ravitch, former US Assistant Secretary of Education (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Ravitch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Ravitch) Edit: she was Assistant Secretary, not Secretary
  - valuearb 9y ago
    I'd be far more okay with standardized tests if the requirement also banned homework until at least Junior High. Otherwise it's a race to the bottom to see which schools can suck up as much of the children's and families home time to help improve the schools scores.
    - cgmg 9y ago
      How would you propose that students practice learning and studying on their own, outside of a classroom setting, without homework?
      - valuearb 9y ago
        I don't propose that children do any of that. That's what high school is for, and 4 years of "practice" is more than enough.
        quicklyfrozen 9y ago
        Some of the reason schools start homework so early is that parents demand it. I've seen parents complain that a first grade class isn't academic enough because the teacher didn't assign enough homework.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
snowwrestler 9y ago
No, the opposite. We didn't understand the decline of US public schools until we started trying to systematically measure their performance. Standardized testing has been around for decades, but was a tool for sorting students. It is only within the last decade or so that we have tried to measure the performance of schools, districts, and states, as systems. It always blows my mind when I see people on HN complaining about school testing and measurement. If you tried to run a web application or a business with zero ways to measure its performance, how do you think that would go?
- valuearb 9y ago
  If your metrics for your web application aren't a good proxy for user experience, those metrics can drive you to make your application worse. Focusing schools on testable performance leads to unintended consequences. My kids had heavy homework loads starting in first grade. They were still kids! and got robbed of much of the joy of childhood that should been afternoons playing at the playground and running around the neighborhood. All so the schools could pump up their test scores, by forcing their "customers" to carry the load.
  - bonesss 9y ago
    There's some relevant business wisdom: "what gets measured gets done". By aligning our educational institutions towards testing we created educational institutions that teach the test and not the rest. Standardized testing is super important. I agree, though, it's a pretty poor proxy for how well schools are performing and who needs what... By way of example: schools with low-scoring test takers likely have environmental issues that impact school performance. The conclusion should likely be beefing up the budget and expanding the schools role to being more "community centers" full of social workers. Poverty is a cycle, individual disruptive elements in school hurt all students, and that little 'war on drugs' has removed a lot of the support structure we expect in those families... Reducing the budget of schools with students in bad situations who can't test properly because their students are in bad situations and therefore can't test properly seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. A prophecy that happens to align very nicely with the ideology and stated goals of the group that pushed "no child left behind".

Is the degradation of US public schools really due to extensive testing?

by cgmg 9y ago

Is the degradation of US public schools really due to extensive testing?

I believe the idea is that the entire curriculum is then centered around teaching the test, versus what kids actually need. As to whether that's the primary issue, no idea.

cgmg 9y ago
Do you really think eliminating standardised tests would improve the education system?
- wavefunction 9y ago
  School-funding and even whether a school closes or not is tied to these tests, so there would be some work involved in replacing that aspect of standardized testing in US schools as well.
- KGIII 9y ago
  There's an excluded middle, in that statement. De-emphasizing the importance may be an option.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    Fair point. Let me rephrase the question: Do you really think reducing standardised tests would improve the education system? If so, what objective evidence can you provide for this belief?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - closeparen 9y ago
      If you measure it less, you'll have a weaker argument for how the education system is doing! Your comment is precisely the problem: objective metrics will always support their proponents' arguments for more measurement, while any upsides to a lessened objective grading will be difficult to show because they'll involve subjective assessment or less assessment. Do not confuse the investigator's convenience in accessing a truth value for the truth value itself.
    - andrewem 9y ago
      That argument has been made many times and in great detail. See for instance the work of Diane Ravitch, former US Assistant Secretary of Education (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Ravitch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Ravitch) Edit: she was Assistant Secretary, not Secretary
- valuearb 9y ago
  I'd be far more okay with standardized tests if the requirement also banned homework until at least Junior High. Otherwise it's a race to the bottom to see which schools can suck up as much of the children's and families home time to help improve the schools scores.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    How would you propose that students practice learning and studying on their own, outside of a classroom setting, without homework?
    - valuearb 9y ago
      I don't propose that children do any of that. That's what high school is for, and 4 years of "practice" is more than enough.
      - quicklyfrozen 9y ago
        Some of the reason schools start homework so early is that parents demand it. I've seen parents complain that a first grade class isn't academic enough because the teacher didn't assign enough homework.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

snowwrestler 9y ago

No, the opposite. We didn't understand the decline of US public schools until we started trying to systematically measure their performance. Standardized testing has been around for decades, but was a tool for sorting students. It is only within the last decade or so that we have tried to measure the performance of schools, districts, and states, as systems. It always blows my mind when I see people on HN complaining about school testing and measurement. If you tried to run a web application or a business with zero ways to measure its performance, how do you think that would go?

valuearb 9y ago
If your metrics for your web application aren't a good proxy for user experience, those metrics can drive you to make your application worse. Focusing schools on testable performance leads to unintended consequences. My kids had heavy homework loads starting in first grade. They were still kids! and got robbed of much of the joy of childhood that should been afternoons playing at the playground and running around the neighborhood. All so the schools could pump up their test scores, by forcing their "customers" to carry the load.
- bonesss 9y ago
  There's some relevant business wisdom: "what gets measured gets done". By aligning our educational institutions towards testing we created educational institutions that teach the test and not the rest. Standardized testing is super important. I agree, though, it's a pretty poor proxy for how well schools are performing and who needs what... By way of example: schools with low-scoring test takers likely have environmental issues that impact school performance. The conclusion should likely be beefing up the budget and expanding the schools role to being more "community centers" full of social workers. Poverty is a cycle, individual disruptive elements in school hurt all students, and that little 'war on drugs' has removed a lot of the support structure we expect in those families... Reducing the budget of schools with students in bad situations who can't test properly because their students are in bad situations and therefore can't test properly seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. A prophecy that happens to align very nicely with the ideology and stated goals of the group that pushed "no child left behind".