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So it's essentially just a mobile data pre-sale with fancy tech? Why is this better than crowdfunding in general??

seibelj 9y ago
The tokens are immediately transferrable on the open market at floating prices. You aren't locked in for 5 years with your money stuck, and if you think the project will fail you can sell your tokens, unlike with kick-starter where you hope and pray they deliver.
- JetSpiegel 9y ago
  Either a) the token is redeemable, and in that case why buy securities you don't intended to use (speculation is the only reason) b) or the company folds before delivering and the token is worthless, so by selling it you are just pushing the loss to a greater fool Either way, this is objectively worse than Kickstarter.
  - seibelj 9y ago
    Let's say you give $50 to a kickstarter project, and in return you get some special benefit, say early access. If this was tokenized, as you follow the project, you could sell early access. If you thought it was less likely to happen, maybe you sell it for $40. If it was super exciting, and the founders capped how much early access there could ever be, maybe you sell at $60. This is the benefit that tokenization gives you. You don't get any say in the company, any stock, etc. - you get access to a product, and through the blockchain you can easily trade it securely and provably. People who buy diamonds, physical diamonds, may be speculating on them. Others may actually like the diamond. For whatever reason, they bought the diamond, and now own it, and can resell it. It isn't illegal to buy something in the hope it goes up in value. People do that all the time with videogames, cars, whatever. Now, let's say ownership of a diamond was moved to the the blockchain. Not only could you buy and transfer it easily, provably, securely - you could even buy 0.000000001 diamonds, or 100000 diamonds, just as easily. In my opinion, all of this is objectively better than kickstarter.
    - hueving 9y ago
      >In my opinion, all of this is objectively better than kickstarter. Sure, because you don't even have the little bit of oversight that kickstarter offers. In your case you can just keep pumping coins into the market while they have any meaningful amount of value. Then when they are worthless you just claim your project failed and take the money from selling the coins.
- will_brown 9y ago
  So do a kickstarter and offer a digital token in addition to whatever you claim to be offering, then the funder have a token to sell when they aren't happy or think you will fail to deliver. And I am not sure that is a selling point, "hey you have an immediately transferable token you can sell at floating prices on a secondary market, if or when you feel we won't deliver." And what justifies these tokens you are offering having such a variable price? They aren't tied to the company equity or actual success of the company, but for your inability to launch when they would become completely valueless, in fact you claim they are a utility transferable for data but why would the price of the product/data being offered fluctuate other than speculation of a blockchain based crypto coin separate having nothing to so with the alleged utility.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    > in fact you claim they are a utility transferable for data but why would the price of the product/data being offered fluctuate The same reason the price of anything fluctuates. Do you think the price of mobile data should be different?
    - will_brown 9y ago
      Do I think the price of mobile data should fluctuate before the company releases a data product on the market...no. You can claim it's the same reason anything fluctuates, but point me to other products/goods/services with prelaunch fluctuating pricing.
      - jstanley 9y ago
        For example the price of crude oil fluctuates. Corn, gas, electricity. Every commodity. If mobile data becomes more of a commodity, it, too, will have a free-floating price.
        will_brown 9y ago
        This guy is claiming his coin isn't regulated because it is a utility to exchange for a product (that doesn't even exist, and may never exist). The rest of that stuff you mention may fluctuate in price, but its a direct price to the end consumer for the product, not a fluctuating price of a "token" to exchange for those products before they exist, but if that is what you are talking about, buying/selling "things" you can exchange for corn before the corn exists that sounds an awful lot like buying/selling futures contracts which is heavily regulated. Either way you would need to find an example that actually fits the facts.
DennisP 9y ago
It's easily tradable, so as a buyer you don't have to predict your personal usage.
mhluongo 9y ago
Well, the funders can sell the tokens immediately if they're unhappy with the team's progress. Try that on Kickstarter or your favorite JOBS act crowdfunding service.
- will_brown 9y ago
  But the tokens are not equity. Its not like "Kickstarter or your favorite JOBS act crowdfunding service" can't give you a little digital token (on blockchain or off blockchain) next to the equity or next to whatever you get on Kickstarter and then the business can claim you have a token to sell as protection if your not happy with the team's progress.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    They don't have to be equity, and even if they were equity it wouldn't make a difference to his point. If you think the tokens (equity or not) are likely to become worthless, you can sell them to somebody else, as long as there is anybody willing to buy. It doesn't matter that it's not equity. Even if it was equity, at the point where it was a dead cert that the tokens would be worthless, they'd still be worthless, regardless of how hard the SEC ensures that you own a slice of that worthlessness.
- Spivak 9y ago
  Sure, but that's really no different than just selling transferable vouchers.

The tokens are immediately transferrable on the open market at floating prices. You aren't locked in for 5 years with your money stuck, and if you think the project will fail you can sell your tokens, unlike with kick-starter where you hope and pray they deliver.

JetSpiegel 9y ago
Either a) the token is redeemable, and in that case why buy securities you don't intended to use (speculation is the only reason) b) or the company folds before delivering and the token is worthless, so by selling it you are just pushing the loss to a greater fool Either way, this is objectively worse than Kickstarter.
- seibelj 9y ago
  Let's say you give $50 to a kickstarter project, and in return you get some special benefit, say early access. If this was tokenized, as you follow the project, you could sell early access. If you thought it was less likely to happen, maybe you sell it for $40. If it was super exciting, and the founders capped how much early access there could ever be, maybe you sell at $60. This is the benefit that tokenization gives you. You don't get any say in the company, any stock, etc. - you get access to a product, and through the blockchain you can easily trade it securely and provably. People who buy diamonds, physical diamonds, may be speculating on them. Others may actually like the diamond. For whatever reason, they bought the diamond, and now own it, and can resell it. It isn't illegal to buy something in the hope it goes up in value. People do that all the time with videogames, cars, whatever. Now, let's say ownership of a diamond was moved to the the blockchain. Not only could you buy and transfer it easily, provably, securely - you could even buy 0.000000001 diamonds, or 100000 diamonds, just as easily. In my opinion, all of this is objectively better than kickstarter.
  - hueving 9y ago
    >In my opinion, all of this is objectively better than kickstarter. Sure, because you don't even have the little bit of oversight that kickstarter offers. In your case you can just keep pumping coins into the market while they have any meaningful amount of value. Then when they are worthless you just claim your project failed and take the money from selling the coins.
will_brown 9y ago
So do a kickstarter and offer a digital token in addition to whatever you claim to be offering, then the funder have a token to sell when they aren't happy or think you will fail to deliver. And I am not sure that is a selling point, "hey you have an immediately transferable token you can sell at floating prices on a secondary market, if or when you feel we won't deliver." And what justifies these tokens you are offering having such a variable price? They aren't tied to the company equity or actual success of the company, but for your inability to launch when they would become completely valueless, in fact you claim they are a utility transferable for data but why would the price of the product/data being offered fluctuate other than speculation of a blockchain based crypto coin separate having nothing to so with the alleged utility.
- jstanley 9y ago
  > in fact you claim they are a utility transferable for data but why would the price of the product/data being offered fluctuate The same reason the price of anything fluctuates. Do you think the price of mobile data should be different?
  - will_brown 9y ago
    Do I think the price of mobile data should fluctuate before the company releases a data product on the market...no. You can claim it's the same reason anything fluctuates, but point me to other products/goods/services with prelaunch fluctuating pricing.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      For example the price of crude oil fluctuates. Corn, gas, electricity. Every commodity. If mobile data becomes more of a commodity, it, too, will have a free-floating price.
      - will_brown 9y ago
        This guy is claiming his coin isn't regulated because it is a utility to exchange for a product (that doesn't even exist, and may never exist). The rest of that stuff you mention may fluctuate in price, but its a direct price to the end consumer for the product, not a fluctuating price of a "token" to exchange for those products before they exist, but if that is what you are talking about, buying/selling "things" you can exchange for corn before the corn exists that sounds an awful lot like buying/selling futures contracts which is heavily regulated. Either way you would need to find an example that actually fits the facts.

DennisP 9y ago

It's easily tradable, so as a buyer you don't have to predict your personal usage.

mhluongo 9y ago

Well, the funders can sell the tokens immediately if they're unhappy with the team's progress. Try that on Kickstarter or your favorite JOBS act crowdfunding service.

will_brown 9y ago
But the tokens are not equity. Its not like "Kickstarter or your favorite JOBS act crowdfunding service" can't give you a little digital token (on blockchain or off blockchain) next to the equity or next to whatever you get on Kickstarter and then the business can claim you have a token to sell as protection if your not happy with the team's progress.
- jstanley 9y ago
  They don't have to be equity, and even if they were equity it wouldn't make a difference to his point. If you think the tokens (equity or not) are likely to become worthless, you can sell them to somebody else, as long as there is anybody willing to buy. It doesn't matter that it's not equity. Even if it was equity, at the point where it was a dead cert that the tokens would be worthless, they'd still be worthless, regardless of how hard the SEC ensures that you own a slice of that worthlessness.
Spivak 9y ago
Sure, but that's really no different than just selling transferable vouchers.