5 ms·

Sure it's unreasonable, but at least charging for it would be better, and make more business sense, than the current "Fuck You, Plebe" they offer to us prisoner

Sure it's unreasonable, but at least charging for it would be better, and make more business sense, than the current "Fuck You, Plebe" they offer to us prisoners of the FVEY panopticon.

onli 9y ago
You are seeing this wrong. Intel has two reasons to have ME: 1. It is useful in business settings 2. It enables the US spy agencies complete surveillance of all PCs It's the second point that explains why they can't make it optional. And that makes business sense. That way they ensure backing from the NSA, instead of having to fight against them.
- codedokode 9y ago
  It can be useful for other purposes too, for example for enforcing DRM so that DRM code runs on a ME engine. And of course DRM code can be backdoored too so playing a specially crafted video would run code from it.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Intel ME is not an effective DRM scheme. You need to be exceptionally careful when you mention DRM, because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play. Research into Intel ME vulnerabilities becomes a federal crime.
    - owenmarshall 9y ago
      This isn't necessarily true: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/10/dmca-security-research-exemption-consumer-devices https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/10/dmca-s... Of the four criteria in the exemption, I wouldn't put it past the government trying to make the case that exposing a NSA spy program somehow falls afoul of good faith investigation - but the general view that "any DRM research is a crime" is no longer accurate.
      - cyphar 9y ago
        The good-faith requirement also means that likely you could not publish a way for someone to disable the "effective anti-circumvention measure". Even if you could, anyone who used that research to disable their own devices is arguably not conducting "good faith security research". While researchers might be safe, nobody will be able to use the results of their research legally except the companies that produce DRM (so that they can make it more secure). I don't think that's actually an improvement to be honest.
    - the8472 9y ago
      > Intel ME is not an effective DRM scheme. The PAVP module is part of the ME firmware. Which means the management engine is, among other things, a DRM implementation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Protected_Audio_Video_Path https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Protected_Audio_Vide... https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf (page 17)
    - kogepathic 9y ago
      > because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play It is already common knowledge that the ME is used to implement DRM. The DRM functionality of the ME has been discussed in several books. [0] The ME contains DRM functions to securely decode content (e.g. streaming video) in a way such that decoded content cannot be snooped by the host processor before it is displayed to the user (ostensibly via a secure channel like HDCP). [0] http://www.apress.com/us/book/9781430265719 http://www.apress.com/us/book/9781430265719
    - Taniwha 9y ago
      It's only a federal crime in the US ... aren't these guys in the UK?
      - cyphar 9y ago
        All signatories to WIPO have DMCA-like laws (including the "effective anti-circumvention" clauses). All countries with "modern" copyright laws are signatories to WIPO, so I would not put money on it being legal in the UK.
      - Mindwipe 9y ago
        http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZB http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZB (Though it is somewhat more limited than the DMCA.)
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play. Research into Intel ME vulnerabilities becomes a federal crime. This is rather an argument against DMCA or an argument why researchers working in this area should consider leaving the USA.
      - cyphar 9y ago
        All signatories to WIPO have DMCA-like laws (including the "effective anti-circumvention" clauses). Given how many countries are signatories to WIPO, there are very few countries where it would be strictly legal to do research into "effective DRM schemes".

Sure it's unreasonable, but at least charging for it would be better, and make more business sense, than the current "Fuck You, Plebe" they offer to us prisoners of the FVEY panopticon.

onli 9y ago

You are seeing this wrong. Intel has two reasons to have ME: 1. It is useful in business settings 2. It enables the US spy agencies complete surveillance of all PCs It's the second point that explains why they can't make it optional. And that makes business sense. That way they ensure backing from the NSA, instead of having to fight against them.

codedokode 9y ago
It can be useful for other purposes too, for example for enforcing DRM so that DRM code runs on a ME engine. And of course DRM code can be backdoored too so playing a specially crafted video would run code from it.
- cyphar 9y ago
  Intel ME is not an effective DRM scheme. You need to be exceptionally careful when you mention DRM, because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play. Research into Intel ME vulnerabilities becomes a federal crime.
  - owenmarshall 9y ago
    This isn't necessarily true: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/10/dmca-security-research-exemption-consumer-devices https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/techftc/2016/10/dmca-s... Of the four criteria in the exemption, I wouldn't put it past the government trying to make the case that exposing a NSA spy program somehow falls afoul of good faith investigation - but the general view that "any DRM research is a crime" is no longer accurate.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      The good-faith requirement also means that likely you could not publish a way for someone to disable the "effective anti-circumvention measure". Even if you could, anyone who used that research to disable their own devices is arguably not conducting "good faith security research". While researchers might be safe, nobody will be able to use the results of their research legally except the companies that produce DRM (so that they can make it more secure). I don't think that's actually an improvement to be honest.
  - the8472 9y ago
    > Intel ME is not an effective DRM scheme. The PAVP module is part of the ME firmware. Which means the management engine is, among other things, a DRM implementation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Protected_Audio_Video_Path https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Protected_Audio_Vide... https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf (page 17)
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play It is already common knowledge that the ME is used to implement DRM. The DRM functionality of the ME has been discussed in several books. [0] The ME contains DRM functions to securely decode content (e.g. streaming video) in a way such that decoded content cannot be snooped by the host processor before it is displayed to the user (ostensibly via a secure channel like HDCP). [0] http://www.apress.com/us/book/9781430265719 http://www.apress.com/us/book/9781430265719
  - Taniwha 9y ago
    It's only a federal crime in the US ... aren't these guys in the UK?
    - cyphar 9y ago
      All signatories to WIPO have DMCA-like laws (including the "effective anti-circumvention" clauses). All countries with "modern" copyright laws are signatories to WIPO, so I would not put money on it being legal in the UK.
    - Mindwipe 9y ago
      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZB http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/296ZB (Though it is somewhat more limited than the DMCA.)
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > because if it becomes commonly believed that Intel ME could be used to implement DRM all of a sudden the DMCA comes into play. Research into Intel ME vulnerabilities becomes a federal crime. This is rather an argument against DMCA or an argument why researchers working in this area should consider leaving the USA.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      All signatories to WIPO have DMCA-like laws (including the "effective anti-circumvention" clauses). Given how many countries are signatories to WIPO, there are very few countries where it would be strictly legal to do research into "effective DRM schemes".