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Right, high altitude balloon flying is not on the standardized test that all government schools are judged by since the "No Child Left Behind" act. All governm

Right, high altitude balloon flying is not on the standardized test that all government schools are judged by since the "No Child Left Behind" act. All government school teachers now have to "teach" to the test and can't waste time on projects like this.

anamax 16y ago
> All government school teachers now have to "teach" to the test and can't waste time on projects like this. Those tests are a fairly low bar, so competent teachers have no problem making sure that their kids pass and doing things like high altitude balloon flying. The problem is the teachers who don't manage to get their kids over that low bar. They don't do high altitude balloon flying, but they will do pointless field trips and never get around to teaching kids to read. Feel free to argue that high altitude balloon flying is more important than reading.
- jerf 16y ago
  "Feel free to argue that high altitude balloon flying is more important than reading." I would rather that 20 kids be able to fly a balloon, and the 21st kid who can't read be shuffled off to some other program/classroom to learn to read, than for 21 kids to sit in a classroom learning to read when 20 of them already know. That wasn't so hard. All I had to do was reject the idea that children are all identical and if they aren't being exposed to the exact same education each then they are being misserved. This is yet another argument that, in order to make sense, has to take as axiomatic that the current school system is already optimal and anything that isn't perfect must be because we're not applying the current system correctly. I find it astonishing how many arguments about school fit this classification.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > I would rather that 20 kids be able to fly a balloon, and the 21st kid who can't read be shuffled off to some other program/classroom to learn to read, than for 21 kids to sit in a classroom learning to read when 20 of them already know. So would I, and there's nothing in NCLB that stops that from happening. > All I had to do was reject the idea that children are all identical and if they aren't being exposed to the exact same education each then they are being misserved. Good for you, but again, this has nothing to do with NCLB. > has to take as axiomatic that the current school system is already optimal Strawman. No one claims that. I'm not saying that NCLB can't be improved, let alone that it is perfect. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't have certain flaws. In some sense, I'm "old school" - I think that it helps a lot if you know where you actually are and where you want to end up before you decide what direction to go. Heck - I even think that it's useful to know what has been tried before and what happened. No, that's not nearly as much fun as describing utopia's outcomes as a plan but ....
    - jerf 16y ago
      "So would I, and there's nothing in NCLB that stops that from happening." I don't care what's causing it, because something is. What label you stick on it, I don't care. NCLB was merely a small course correction sitting on top of a fundamentally broken system and I reject your attempt to frame my argument as anti-NCLB. I'm talking about the whole system.
      - anamax 16y ago
        > I reject your attempt to frame my argument as anti-NCLB. That "framing" was yours; if it wasn't what you intended.... I'll quote. > Right, high altitude balloon flying is not on the standardized test that all government schools are judged by since the "No Child Left Behind" act. > All government school teachers now have to "teach" to the test and can't waste time on projects like this.
- etm117 16y ago
  Yes, but it goes to the levels of the students in the class. A lower level class is not the teachers fault (or may not be, and realistically is prior year's teachers, parents, and other outside influences), but it will limit the teacher from doing things such as the balloon since they need to really focus on the NSLB testing studies. So a teacher may be very competent, but not have the right opportunities to do interesting stuff like this if they cannot easily and directly tie it to classroom studies, especially those around standardized tests. And unfortunately it seems like teachers with lower level students only have enough time to focus on getting them to pass those tests.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > And unfortunately it seems like teachers with lower level students only have enough time to focus on getting them to pass those tests. Like I said, feel free to argue that those kids should do high altitude balloons instead of reading. Yes, do both if you can, but if you have to make a decision, which one do you choose?

anamax 16y ago

> All government school teachers now have to "teach" to the test and can't waste time on projects like this. Those tests are a fairly low bar, so competent teachers have no problem making sure that their kids pass and doing things like high altitude balloon flying. The problem is the teachers who don't manage to get their kids over that low bar. They don't do high altitude balloon flying, but they will do pointless field trips and never get around to teaching kids to read. Feel free to argue that high altitude balloon flying is more important than reading.

jerf 16y ago
"Feel free to argue that high altitude balloon flying is more important than reading." I would rather that 20 kids be able to fly a balloon, and the 21st kid who can't read be shuffled off to some other program/classroom to learn to read, than for 21 kids to sit in a classroom learning to read when 20 of them already know. That wasn't so hard. All I had to do was reject the idea that children are all identical and if they aren't being exposed to the exact same education each then they are being misserved. This is yet another argument that, in order to make sense, has to take as axiomatic that the current school system is already optimal and anything that isn't perfect must be because we're not applying the current system correctly. I find it astonishing how many arguments about school fit this classification.
- anamax 16y ago
  > I would rather that 20 kids be able to fly a balloon, and the 21st kid who can't read be shuffled off to some other program/classroom to learn to read, than for 21 kids to sit in a classroom learning to read when 20 of them already know. So would I, and there's nothing in NCLB that stops that from happening. > All I had to do was reject the idea that children are all identical and if they aren't being exposed to the exact same education each then they are being misserved. Good for you, but again, this has nothing to do with NCLB. > has to take as axiomatic that the current school system is already optimal Strawman. No one claims that. I'm not saying that NCLB can't be improved, let alone that it is perfect. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't have certain flaws. In some sense, I'm "old school" - I think that it helps a lot if you know where you actually are and where you want to end up before you decide what direction to go. Heck - I even think that it's useful to know what has been tried before and what happened. No, that's not nearly as much fun as describing utopia's outcomes as a plan but ....
  - jerf 16y ago
    "So would I, and there's nothing in NCLB that stops that from happening." I don't care what's causing it, because something is. What label you stick on it, I don't care. NCLB was merely a small course correction sitting on top of a fundamentally broken system and I reject your attempt to frame my argument as anti-NCLB. I'm talking about the whole system.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > I reject your attempt to frame my argument as anti-NCLB. That "framing" was yours; if it wasn't what you intended.... I'll quote. > Right, high altitude balloon flying is not on the standardized test that all government schools are judged by since the "No Child Left Behind" act. > All government school teachers now have to "teach" to the test and can't waste time on projects like this.
etm117 16y ago
Yes, but it goes to the levels of the students in the class. A lower level class is not the teachers fault (or may not be, and realistically is prior year's teachers, parents, and other outside influences), but it will limit the teacher from doing things such as the balloon since they need to really focus on the NSLB testing studies. So a teacher may be very competent, but not have the right opportunities to do interesting stuff like this if they cannot easily and directly tie it to classroom studies, especially those around standardized tests. And unfortunately it seems like teachers with lower level students only have enough time to focus on getting them to pass those tests.
- anamax 16y ago
  > And unfortunately it seems like teachers with lower level students only have enough time to focus on getting them to pass those tests. Like I said, feel free to argue that those kids should do high altitude balloons instead of reading. Yes, do both if you can, but if you have to make a decision, which one do you choose?