10 ms·

This is a 115-year-old company, with one of the most valuable brands in the world, a long history of technological innovation, and legendary German engineering,

This is a 115-year-old company, with one of the most valuable brands in the world, a long history of technological innovation, and legendary German engineering, chasing a 15-year-old upstart with less than a tenth of the sales volume. Even if you think Tesla is over-hyped and over-valued, you've got to hand it to them for really shaping the narrative of automotive innovation. As for this particular device, it appears to top out at 20kWh. That's pretty small; a gasoline-replacement electric car has a much larger battery. (Tesla sells them up to 100kWh) Then again, 20kWh is enough to cover most days' driving...

hinkley 9y ago
Usable capacity is 18kWh. Not sure why they've got a 10% discrepancy between their ad and the data sheet. Awfully early to be lying already.
- julianwachholz 9y ago
  18kWh is the nominal capacity. Pretty much every vendor advertises the theoretical maximum capacity but not all of them are honest to also give you the nominal capacity. Just like some people recently found out that the Model S 85 actually only had 81kWh capacity with 77kWh usable [1]. Similarly my electric motorcycle advertises 13kWh capacity but clearly says it has only 11.4kWh nominal capacity [2]. [1] https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla-teardown-100-kwh-battery-pack/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla-teardown-100-kwh-batter... [2] http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr
  - beambot 9y ago
    For the car: You mostly care about range -- after aggregating for things like battery capacity, efficiency, drag, etc. That's not necessarily true for a storage system.
kumarvvr 9y ago
We could also think of it as they understanding the market needs & technology direction. It did take a 15 year old upstart to recognize the market, but I don't think there is anything wrong in established companies trying to get into the market. It certainly adds more competition and brings much welcomed innovation into the ecosystem.
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  There's nothing wrong with other companies getting involved, the comment merely highlights that it took a small company with lot of media attention to set the direction for a larger industry. It's no problem for Tesla, it was their plan all along to encourage competition.
  - rapsey 9y ago
    > the comment merely highlights that it took a small company with lot of media attention to set the direction for a larger industry. Isn't that very often the case though? Think iPod/iPhone. Apple was a nobody in those spaces when those devices were released.
    - kumarvvr 9y ago
      Media attention is usually required only when a consumer product is at stake. Take, for example, current upstarts competing with Cisco in networking gear. Not much media exposure but a quite revolution. In the history of business, its almost always the upstart that upends business. Examples include Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft.
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Who are the network hardware upstarts you're thinking of? What are they bringing to the market which is changing it?
        kumarvvr 9y ago
ssmiler 9y ago
Considering that they need to recycle used car batteries, each car manufacturer will have it's own "energy storage" solution.
mozumder 9y ago
So, are we going to erase the Prius and GM EV1 from the history books? Also, I'm still not convinced that hybrids aren't a better solution than full EV.
agumonkey 9y ago
I even think it's gonna help Musk ventures. Now Tesla is not the odd one trying this weird E thing.
wopwops 9y ago
Tesla actually underhypes the Powerwall 2. It's better than most people realize. See: capabilities of the backup gateway. It islands existing grid tie solar systems and allows these systems to generate electricity for household loads and/or Powerwall charging during grid failures. Usually grid tie solar systems are disabled during grid failures to prevent them from exporting electricity to the grid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxAbd-kanI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxAbd-kanI8 Tesla mentions this capability, but most people shopping for energy storage don't realize what it would cost to do this with gear from other manufacturers (SMA for example). Some storage providers don't offer any backup capability at all. Enphase is the saddest example of this. Enphase tried to convince customers that they shouldn't demand backup capabilities from their solar energy storage systems, and Tesla is actually towing a Tiny house around Australia that uses Enphase microinverters with a Powerwall 2 offgrid. Enphase's own AC Battery provide no backup capability at all or a way to run off grid. I sell solar power systems in New Zealand and the Powerwall 2 makes every other storage solution look stupid at the moment when considering price per warranted kW/h and features. I can't sell my customers a Powerwall 2 yet, but I advise against buying systems that I can sell them from Panasonic, LG, Sonnen, Enphase, etc. The whole storage industry needs to understand that the Powerwall 2 is real (get over the shock) and that if they don't cut their prices roughly in half---look at Aquion. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/15/aquion-energy-files-chapter-11-bankruptcy/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/15/aquion-energy-files-cha... Nice battery. Too expensive.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  Powerwall is very expensive too. It would cost well over 10k to install 2 modules that their website says would be adequate for my house. I pay something like $100/mo for electricity. Do the math. Solar is way too expensive as well, even with subsidies. I don't know who their target market is. Is it only for people who can't count?
  - azinman2 9y ago
    My parents house loses power often when it rains. They just bought one as a house-scale UPS.
holydude 9y ago
Legendary German engineering is a myth especially in this day and age . Sure they have an edge on few things as they were the first / had the most experience and the budget to improve on but just look at how they are loosing against the fierce competition from the US and Asia. I am not saying they are bad I am saying they are not that good as people think. They milk the brand but fail to deliver exceptional products.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  Bosch is still the best after 130 years. (I worked for the world #2 supplier that's been trying to catch them for 50 years) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I can also vouch for Miele appliances. Though they've lasted for over 20 years, which means the company might be producing crap by now for all I know :)
    - eliaspro 9y ago
      I always regarded MIELE as top-notch, so I bought nearly every household/kitchen appliance from them. Can't remember having had to call a service hotline of a specific brand that often. Wash-dryer needed 6 repairs within the first 7 years (luckily covered by 10y warranty), dishwasher twice in 5 years, microwave/steamer and ventilation hood both once within the first 5 months. The MIELE image unfortunately took quite some damage based on my personal experience.
      - holydude 9y ago
        I do not believe they have an edge. They might be sticking to the few features = less moving parts = smaller chance to break but the materials are same cheap plastics and weak metals.
- 9y ago
skgoa 9y ago
Not to rain on your cirklejerk, but Daimler was an early investor in Tesla and has assisted on the Tesla S. E.g. the driver-assist stalk that is used to control Autopilot is the exact part from the S class.

hinkley 9y ago

Usable capacity is 18kWh. Not sure why they've got a 10% discrepancy between their ad and the data sheet. Awfully early to be lying already.

julianwachholz 9y ago
18kWh is the nominal capacity. Pretty much every vendor advertises the theoretical maximum capacity but not all of them are honest to also give you the nominal capacity. Just like some people recently found out that the Model S 85 actually only had 81kWh capacity with 77kWh usable [1]. Similarly my electric motorcycle advertises 13kWh capacity but clearly says it has only 11.4kWh nominal capacity [2]. [1] https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla-teardown-100-kwh-battery-pack/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla-teardown-100-kwh-batter... [2] http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php?model=sr
- beambot 9y ago
  For the car: You mostly care about range -- after aggregating for things like battery capacity, efficiency, drag, etc. That's not necessarily true for a storage system.

kumarvvr 9y ago

We could also think of it as they understanding the market needs & technology direction. It did take a 15 year old upstart to recognize the market, but I don't think there is anything wrong in established companies trying to get into the market. It certainly adds more competition and brings much welcomed innovation into the ecosystem.

ZenoArrow 9y ago
There's nothing wrong with other companies getting involved, the comment merely highlights that it took a small company with lot of media attention to set the direction for a larger industry. It's no problem for Tesla, it was their plan all along to encourage competition.
- rapsey 9y ago
  > the comment merely highlights that it took a small company with lot of media attention to set the direction for a larger industry. Isn't that very often the case though? Think iPod/iPhone. Apple was a nobody in those spaces when those devices were released.
  - kumarvvr 9y ago
    Media attention is usually required only when a consumer product is at stake. Take, for example, current upstarts competing with Cisco in networking gear. Not much media exposure but a quite revolution. In the history of business, its almost always the upstart that upends business. Examples include Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft.
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Who are the network hardware upstarts you're thinking of? What are they bringing to the market which is changing it?
      - kumarvvr 9y ago

ssmiler 9y ago

Considering that they need to recycle used car batteries, each car manufacturer will have it's own "energy storage" solution.

mozumder 9y ago

So, are we going to erase the Prius and GM EV1 from the history books? Also, I'm still not convinced that hybrids aren't a better solution than full EV.

agumonkey 9y ago

I even think it's gonna help Musk ventures. Now Tesla is not the odd one trying this weird E thing.

wopwops 9y ago

Tesla actually underhypes the Powerwall 2. It's better than most people realize. See: capabilities of the backup gateway. It islands existing grid tie solar systems and allows these systems to generate electricity for household loads and/or Powerwall charging during grid failures. Usually grid tie solar systems are disabled during grid failures to prevent them from exporting electricity to the grid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxAbd-kanI8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxAbd-kanI8 Tesla mentions this capability, but most people shopping for energy storage don't realize what it would cost to do this with gear from other manufacturers (SMA for example). Some storage providers don't offer any backup capability at all. Enphase is the saddest example of this. Enphase tried to convince customers that they shouldn't demand backup capabilities from their solar energy storage systems, and Tesla is actually towing a Tiny house around Australia that uses Enphase microinverters with a Powerwall 2 offgrid. Enphase's own AC Battery provide no backup capability at all or a way to run off grid. I sell solar power systems in New Zealand and the Powerwall 2 makes every other storage solution look stupid at the moment when considering price per warranted kW/h and features. I can't sell my customers a Powerwall 2 yet, but I advise against buying systems that I can sell them from Panasonic, LG, Sonnen, Enphase, etc. The whole storage industry needs to understand that the Powerwall 2 is real (get over the shock) and that if they don't cut their prices roughly in half---look at Aquion. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/15/aquion-energy-files-chapter-11-bankruptcy/ https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/15/aquion-energy-files-cha... Nice battery. Too expensive.

0xbear 9y ago
Powerwall is very expensive too. It would cost well over 10k to install 2 modules that their website says would be adequate for my house. I pay something like $100/mo for electricity. Do the math. Solar is way too expensive as well, even with subsidies. I don't know who their target market is. Is it only for people who can't count?
- azinman2 9y ago
  My parents house loses power often when it rains. They just bought one as a house-scale UPS.

holydude 9y ago

Legendary German engineering is a myth especially in this day and age . Sure they have an edge on few things as they were the first / had the most experience and the budget to improve on but just look at how they are loosing against the fierce competition from the US and Asia. I am not saying they are bad I am saying they are not that good as people think. They milk the brand but fail to deliver exceptional products.

hkmurakami 9y ago
Bosch is still the best after 130 years. (I worked for the world #2 supplier that's been trying to catch them for 50 years) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH
- icebraining 9y ago
  I can also vouch for Miele appliances. Though they've lasted for over 20 years, which means the company might be producing crap by now for all I know :)
  - eliaspro 9y ago
    I always regarded MIELE as top-notch, so I bought nearly every household/kitchen appliance from them. Can't remember having had to call a service hotline of a specific brand that often. Wash-dryer needed 6 repairs within the first 7 years (luckily covered by 10y warranty), dishwasher twice in 5 years, microwave/steamer and ventilation hood both once within the first 5 months. The MIELE image unfortunately took quite some damage based on my personal experience.
    - holydude 9y ago
      I do not believe they have an edge. They might be sticking to the few features = less moving parts = smaller chance to break but the materials are same cheap plastics and weak metals.
9y ago

skgoa 9y ago

Not to rain on your cirklejerk, but Daimler was an early investor in Tesla and has assisted on the Tesla S. E.g. the driver-assist stalk that is used to control Autopilot is the exact part from the S class.