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Proximity flying is just inherently dangerous. Even with power, many people have died. Sparky Imeson, who wrote the "bible" of mountain flying, died from flying

Proximity flying is just inherently dangerous. Even with power, many people have died. Sparky Imeson, who wrote the "bible" of mountain flying, died from flying too close to terrain. The strange thing is that he was actually flying back to somewhere that he had had an accident in the past (the first time he just got seriously injured, the second time he died). If you look at the accident location, there is a valley at right-angles to the valley they're flying up, possibly causing katabatic downdrafts or something similar. Steve Fossett apparently died flying too close to terrain at high density altitude with forecast winds possibly resulting in downdrafts. Both of those people were extremely experienced pilots, but they just cut the margin for error too low. The main problem seems to be that winds are somewhat unpredictable, and if you're flying too close to terrain you might not have a chance to recover if you hit a sudden downdraft. I can't imagine doing this with a powered aircraft, never mind a wingsuit. These pilots who died were 100-300ft from terrain, never mind a few feet like these unpowered wingsuit pilots. If you stall from 100ft you're dead in almost any type of aircraft as there isn't enough altitude to recover. (I don't know how many of these wingsuit deaths were caused by stalls. It seems equally likely that they just misjudged things or a small change in wind just pushed them into terrain). There's gotta be safer ways to get an adrenaline rush.

Simon_says 9y ago
> died from flying too close to terrain Is that a euphemism for crashing into the ground?
- jdietrich 9y ago
  BASE wingsuit fliers tend to skim just above the surface of a slope rather than flying at higher altitude. You'll see it a lot if you watch GoPro videos. This is phenomenally dangerous in a powered aircraft, but it's near-suicidal if you're flying a wingsuit.
  - jandrese 9y ago
    But it makes for awesome GoPro footage[1] so people keep doing it. When you see people flying so low that they have to weave between trees you know that they're going to make a mistake or hit an unexpected gust of wind and kill themselves sooner rather than later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzwvyzzfjk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzwvyzzfjk
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      That guy will be dead soon, it's only luck that he isn't yet.
      - ProAm 9y ago
        He died earlier this year.
        gnaritas 9y ago
        Not the least bit surprised.
        jandrese 9y ago
        I didn't go out to find a video of someone who died, but I guess if you're looking for videos of people doing insanely dangerous stunts it shouldn't be a surprise. FYI, here's the article on his death. Yes, he died just as you would have expected: jumping off of a mountain with in a wingsuit. http://globalnews.ca/news/3219444/canadian-wingsuit-flyer-graham-dickinson-dies-during-base-jump-in-china/ http://globalnews.ca/news/3219444/canadian-wingsuit-flyer-gr...
        bartread 9y ago
        Indeed: that was amazing footage but clearly no margin for error. If you're doing that kind of thing routinely it's bound to kill you sooner or later.
- perilunar 9y ago
  Not to be confused with "controlled flight into terrain".
Gibbon1 9y ago
My dad was a mechanical engineer that spent most of his working career supporting the development of aircraft. Me mentioned there are two paradoxical things about aircraft. The higher you fly, the safer it is. Flying higher gives the pilot more time to fix problems. Took a while for early aviators to realize this. Many died. And the faster you land, the safer it is. Landing faster reduces the relative effects of wind shear. For a couple of reasons. The most obvious is the effect of a 20mph wind shear is less at 120mph than 60. And higher landing speed, higher stall speed, higher wing loading, less effects due to buffeting. This took even longer to realize. For a while the FAA had a rule limiting the maximum stall speed of commercial aircraft. That rule killed people. Point being guys flying wing suits are flying in an intrinsically dangerous flight envelope.
- JshWright 9y ago
  > The higher you fly, the safer it is. Flying higher gives the pilot more time to fix problems. I have heard pilots refer to "mistakes" as a unit of measure for altitude. You want to spend as much time as possible 2+ mistakes high.
  - LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
    When I was learning how to fly RC airplanes my teacher didn't give me control until we were 3 mistakes high. It's a funny term, but it also gets the point across better than any other unit of measure.
j_s 9y ago
> There's gotta be safer ways to get an adrenaline rush. I was suprised to see no mention of VR as a potential alternative anywhere in the thread. I suppose realism still has a long way to go!
- kbart 9y ago
  I doubt VR will ever replace dangerous sports. You get adrenaline rush precisely for the fact that you realize it's dangerous with a real potential of getting killed or wounded and the fact that you get away with it. Sitting in an armchair with no such potential consequences might get you some thrills but it's nowhere close to the real adrenaline rush. I don't actively pursuit this feeling, but driving motorcycle regularly had put me in several close calls over the years giving an adrenaline rush I realize can not be replicated in the safer environments.
  - mulletbum 9y ago
    This is why I always wish I went into game development. Maybe it can't be the same thing, but the experience can still be extraordinary. Even playing a game like Kerbal Space Program makes you feel like an astronaut. I can't imagine how good virtual reality can get.
    - slazaro 9y ago
      But you get the rush from playing those games, not developing them. I mean, you do get a rush from releasing something you finished and believe in, but it's not what you're looking for, right?
      - mulletbum 9y ago
        Correct, 100% right. However, I like to think of it like a musician. If I don't like music, I make music I like. So if I wanted an awesome experience from a game, I could make the game and experience I want. Of course, all that is harder to do with programming (than music), but you get the drift.
  - 9y ago
Piskvorrr 9y ago
...which, of course, defeats the point "I did something insanely dangerous and did not die". Is there a way to increase safety while keeping the feeling of danger? That sounds like a contradiction to me.
- cpncrunch 9y ago
  Isn't it the feeling of excitement they're looking for, rather than danger? It just happens that this activity is exciting and extremely dangerous. What about kite surfing?
  - jandrese 9y ago
    Some people get off on the feeling of danger. I read an article once about a solo free climber who had attached some handholds to the ceiling of his apartment for practice, but it wasn't enough, so he build a board full of steak knives pointing upward to place under the handholds for the proper feeling. Sadly I can't find the article anymore. I suspect it may have been taken down out of respect for the dead.
  - manarth 9y ago
    Kite-surfing introduces the risks of drowning and hypothermia. Without looking through the stats, I wouldn't like to say which is more dangerous, and without data it would be reckless to assume one or the other because it "seems more dangerous", but kite-surfing comes with unique dangers that don't exist in skydiving, and vice-versa.
foobarian 9y ago
I was flying a kite on a wide open beach the other day. With the constant sea-to-land wind it was a piece of cake, once the kite was above 20ft it just stayed up. However the next day, somehow the airflow was much more turbulent. I would get the kite a good 100 ft up and still, suddenly a particular vortex would flip it upside down and slam it into the ground. Made me think exactly about this kind of activity and how risky it must be.

Simon_says 9y ago

> died from flying too close to terrain Is that a euphemism for crashing into the ground?

jdietrich 9y ago
BASE wingsuit fliers tend to skim just above the surface of a slope rather than flying at higher altitude. You'll see it a lot if you watch GoPro videos. This is phenomenally dangerous in a powered aircraft, but it's near-suicidal if you're flying a wingsuit.
- jandrese 9y ago
  But it makes for awesome GoPro footage[1] so people keep doing it. When you see people flying so low that they have to weave between trees you know that they're going to make a mistake or hit an unexpected gust of wind and kill themselves sooner rather than later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzwvyzzfjk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzwvyzzfjk
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    That guy will be dead soon, it's only luck that he isn't yet.
    - ProAm 9y ago
      He died earlier this year.
      - gnaritas 9y ago
        Not the least bit surprised.
        jandrese 9y ago
        I didn't go out to find a video of someone who died, but I guess if you're looking for videos of people doing insanely dangerous stunts it shouldn't be a surprise. FYI, here's the article on his death. Yes, he died just as you would have expected: jumping off of a mountain with in a wingsuit. http://globalnews.ca/news/3219444/canadian-wingsuit-flyer-graham-dickinson-dies-during-base-jump-in-china/ http://globalnews.ca/news/3219444/canadian-wingsuit-flyer-gr...
        bartread 9y ago
        Indeed: that was amazing footage but clearly no margin for error. If you're doing that kind of thing routinely it's bound to kill you sooner or later.
perilunar 9y ago
Not to be confused with "controlled flight into terrain".

Gibbon1 9y ago

My dad was a mechanical engineer that spent most of his working career supporting the development of aircraft. Me mentioned there are two paradoxical things about aircraft. The higher you fly, the safer it is. Flying higher gives the pilot more time to fix problems. Took a while for early aviators to realize this. Many died. And the faster you land, the safer it is. Landing faster reduces the relative effects of wind shear. For a couple of reasons. The most obvious is the effect of a 20mph wind shear is less at 120mph than 60. And higher landing speed, higher stall speed, higher wing loading, less effects due to buffeting. This took even longer to realize. For a while the FAA had a rule limiting the maximum stall speed of commercial aircraft. That rule killed people. Point being guys flying wing suits are flying in an intrinsically dangerous flight envelope.

JshWright 9y ago
> The higher you fly, the safer it is. Flying higher gives the pilot more time to fix problems. I have heard pilots refer to "mistakes" as a unit of measure for altitude. You want to spend as much time as possible 2+ mistakes high.
- LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
  When I was learning how to fly RC airplanes my teacher didn't give me control until we were 3 mistakes high. It's a funny term, but it also gets the point across better than any other unit of measure.

j_s 9y ago

> There's gotta be safer ways to get an adrenaline rush. I was suprised to see no mention of VR as a potential alternative anywhere in the thread. I suppose realism still has a long way to go!

kbart 9y ago
I doubt VR will ever replace dangerous sports. You get adrenaline rush precisely for the fact that you realize it's dangerous with a real potential of getting killed or wounded and the fact that you get away with it. Sitting in an armchair with no such potential consequences might get you some thrills but it's nowhere close to the real adrenaline rush. I don't actively pursuit this feeling, but driving motorcycle regularly had put me in several close calls over the years giving an adrenaline rush I realize can not be replicated in the safer environments.
- mulletbum 9y ago
  This is why I always wish I went into game development. Maybe it can't be the same thing, but the experience can still be extraordinary. Even playing a game like Kerbal Space Program makes you feel like an astronaut. I can't imagine how good virtual reality can get.
  - slazaro 9y ago
    But you get the rush from playing those games, not developing them. I mean, you do get a rush from releasing something you finished and believe in, but it's not what you're looking for, right?
    - mulletbum 9y ago
      Correct, 100% right. However, I like to think of it like a musician. If I don't like music, I make music I like. So if I wanted an awesome experience from a game, I could make the game and experience I want. Of course, all that is harder to do with programming (than music), but you get the drift.
- 9y ago

Piskvorrr 9y ago

...which, of course, defeats the point "I did something insanely dangerous and did not die". Is there a way to increase safety while keeping the feeling of danger? That sounds like a contradiction to me.

cpncrunch 9y ago
Isn't it the feeling of excitement they're looking for, rather than danger? It just happens that this activity is exciting and extremely dangerous. What about kite surfing?
- jandrese 9y ago
  Some people get off on the feeling of danger. I read an article once about a solo free climber who had attached some handholds to the ceiling of his apartment for practice, but it wasn't enough, so he build a board full of steak knives pointing upward to place under the handholds for the proper feeling. Sadly I can't find the article anymore. I suspect it may have been taken down out of respect for the dead.
- manarth 9y ago
  Kite-surfing introduces the risks of drowning and hypothermia. Without looking through the stats, I wouldn't like to say which is more dangerous, and without data it would be reckless to assume one or the other because it "seems more dangerous", but kite-surfing comes with unique dangers that don't exist in skydiving, and vice-versa.

foobarian 9y ago

I was flying a kite on a wide open beach the other day. With the constant sea-to-land wind it was a piece of cake, once the kite was above 20ft it just stayed up. However the next day, somehow the airflow was much more turbulent. I would get the kite a good 100 ft up and still, suddenly a particular vortex would flip it upside down and slam it into the ground. Made me think exactly about this kind of activity and how risky it must be.