4 ms·

I've seen this mentioned before, it seems to be the main point. > Most beginners who die appear to be making variations of the exact same error, according to W

I've seen this mentioned before, it seems to be the main point. > Most beginners who die appear to be making variations of the exact same error, according to Webb. “They jump off a cliff, get flying, and for some reason there's just this human reaction to try to hug the air like a big, gigantic beach ball,” he explains. “By hugging air you feel as if you're creating or catching more lift than you actually are. What ends up happening is your suit can only grab so much air, and it starts to stall. When it starts to stall, it loses lift, starts to drag, and then, splat.

deleted 9y ago
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jdietrich 9y ago
A lot of highly experienced jumpers are also dying, probably due to a mix of complacency, envelope-pushing and the inherent lack of margin for error in terrain flight. This point is made in the latter part of the article: > Figuring out why the best are dying confounds, saddens, and even irritates just about everyone I’ve spoken to in the wingsuit BASE world. “It’s really puzzling to me,” says Rich Webb. “I wish I knew, but I think it has to do with complacency.” > Webb points out that many of the best are dying on flight lines that might be considered either “easy” for them, or they’re lines that they’ve done before. “It comes down to the fact that they're so comfortable in a stupidly high-risk environment,” says Webb. “We just don't have the luxury of margins in our sport, so at some point it catches up to you if you're not on it all the time.” > Andy Lewis speculates, “I would say so many experienced wingsuiters are dying because they are trying to execute jumps with very low margin for error. Eventually when you make a mistake you hope you have room. And now low margins are so standard in the sport. It just kills people.”
- joelrunyon 9y ago
  It shouldn't be that confusing. The mortality risk here is ridiculously high. No matter how good you are at something, you're not perfect. In any other sport, you can be a half-second late and have normal consequences, recover and be okay. In BASE, you're dead.
- Powerofmene 9y ago
  When a person loses fear they take greater risks or feel invincible, neither a good when executing a maneuver that has a very small margin of error.
- j1f4 9y ago
  This reminds me of Freeman Dyson's research on British Bombers during WWII -- the data showed experienced crews didn't fair better than novices, but they didn't figure out why till after the war. > Bomber Command told the crews that their chances of survival would increase with experience, and the crews believed it. They were told, After you have got through the first few operations, things will get better. This idea was important for morale at a time when the fraction of crews surviving to the end of a 30-operation tour was only about 25 percent. I subdivided the experienced and inexperienced crews on each operation and did the analysis, and again, the result was clear. Experience did not reduce loss rates. The cause of losses, whatever it was, killed novice and expert crews impartially. This result contradicted the official dogma, and the Command never accepted it. I blame the ORS, and I blame myself in particular, for not taking this result seriously enough. The evidence showed that the main cause of losses was an attack that gave experienced crews no chance either to escape or to defend themselves. If we had taken the evidence more seriously, we might have discovered Schräge Musik in time to respond with effective countermeasures. ... > the German pilots were highly skilled, and they hardly ever got shot down. They carried a firing system called Schräge Musik, or “crooked music,” which allowed them to fly underneath a bomber and fire guns upward at a 60-degree angle. The fighter could see the bomber clearly silhouetted against the night sky, while the bomber could not see the fighter. This system efficiently destroyed thousands of bombers, and we did not even know that it existed. This was the greatest failure of the ORS. We learned about Schräge Musik too late to do anything to counter it. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/406789/a-failure-of-intelligence/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/406789/a-failure-of-intel... The wingsuit jumpers consider possible dangers to lie with complacency of experts on easy flights, experts envelope pushing, or novices jumping unprepared. But these factors are all so contradictory that I'm left wondering if there is a hidden risk that affects novices and experts alike.
  - Dwolb 9y ago
    That's a great story. My first instinct for where to look to find things that would affect experts and beginners alike is manufacturing defects or poor suit design. I'd say also weather but that seems more likely to be highly variable and prone to skill (i.e. experts know when conditions are poor).
nzjrs 9y ago
I think the main point of the article is that this isn't the main point. This sport has no safety margin. The reasons this margin is insufficient for beginners and experts differ.
wingerlang 9y ago
Maybe some suit should add in a "hugging" meter that alerts the flyer of this issue.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jdietrich 9y ago

A lot of highly experienced jumpers are also dying, probably due to a mix of complacency, envelope-pushing and the inherent lack of margin for error in terrain flight. This point is made in the latter part of the article: > Figuring out why the best are dying confounds, saddens, and even irritates just about everyone I’ve spoken to in the wingsuit BASE world. “It’s really puzzling to me,” says Rich Webb. “I wish I knew, but I think it has to do with complacency.” > Webb points out that many of the best are dying on flight lines that might be considered either “easy” for them, or they’re lines that they’ve done before. “It comes down to the fact that they're so comfortable in a stupidly high-risk environment,” says Webb. “We just don't have the luxury of margins in our sport, so at some point it catches up to you if you're not on it all the time.” > Andy Lewis speculates, “I would say so many experienced wingsuiters are dying because they are trying to execute jumps with very low margin for error. Eventually when you make a mistake you hope you have room. And now low margins are so standard in the sport. It just kills people.”

joelrunyon 9y ago
It shouldn't be that confusing. The mortality risk here is ridiculously high. No matter how good you are at something, you're not perfect. In any other sport, you can be a half-second late and have normal consequences, recover and be okay. In BASE, you're dead.
Powerofmene 9y ago
When a person loses fear they take greater risks or feel invincible, neither a good when executing a maneuver that has a very small margin of error.
j1f4 9y ago
This reminds me of Freeman Dyson's research on British Bombers during WWII -- the data showed experienced crews didn't fair better than novices, but they didn't figure out why till after the war. > Bomber Command told the crews that their chances of survival would increase with experience, and the crews believed it. They were told, After you have got through the first few operations, things will get better. This idea was important for morale at a time when the fraction of crews surviving to the end of a 30-operation tour was only about 25 percent. I subdivided the experienced and inexperienced crews on each operation and did the analysis, and again, the result was clear. Experience did not reduce loss rates. The cause of losses, whatever it was, killed novice and expert crews impartially. This result contradicted the official dogma, and the Command never accepted it. I blame the ORS, and I blame myself in particular, for not taking this result seriously enough. The evidence showed that the main cause of losses was an attack that gave experienced crews no chance either to escape or to defend themselves. If we had taken the evidence more seriously, we might have discovered Schräge Musik in time to respond with effective countermeasures. ... > the German pilots were highly skilled, and they hardly ever got shot down. They carried a firing system called Schräge Musik, or “crooked music,” which allowed them to fly underneath a bomber and fire guns upward at a 60-degree angle. The fighter could see the bomber clearly silhouetted against the night sky, while the bomber could not see the fighter. This system efficiently destroyed thousands of bombers, and we did not even know that it existed. This was the greatest failure of the ORS. We learned about Schräge Musik too late to do anything to counter it. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/406789/a-failure-of-intelligence/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/406789/a-failure-of-intel... The wingsuit jumpers consider possible dangers to lie with complacency of experts on easy flights, experts envelope pushing, or novices jumping unprepared. But these factors are all so contradictory that I'm left wondering if there is a hidden risk that affects novices and experts alike.
- Dwolb 9y ago
  That's a great story. My first instinct for where to look to find things that would affect experts and beginners alike is manufacturing defects or poor suit design. I'd say also weather but that seems more likely to be highly variable and prone to skill (i.e. experts know when conditions are poor).

nzjrs 9y ago

I think the main point of the article is that this isn't the main point. This sport has no safety margin. The reasons this margin is insufficient for beginners and experts differ.

wingerlang 9y ago

Maybe some suit should add in a "hugging" meter that alerts the flyer of this issue.