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A French wine trade war
- pmoriarty 9y ago"We can produce the wine at lower cost because salaries are less," said Juan Corbalán García, who represents the Agri-Food Cooperatives in Brussels. "But that doesn’t mean we’re doing unfair competition." Perfect example of a race to the bottom.
- Tinyyy 9y agoOr perhaps of comparative advantage?
- eru 9y agoHas there _ever_ been a race to the bottom in terms of wages ever?
- sidibe 9y agowhat? Do you mean actual wages individually getting lowered? That's probably rarer, but an effective race to the bottom of wages happens all the time, eg when they move the textile factory from the Carolinas to China then to Bangladesh.
- eru 9y agoThat's more of a reaction to the race to the ceiling in wages that's going on in the background, ain't it? They move from China to Bangladesh because competition from more productive industries makes Chinese wages grow faster than what garment manufacturing can support, don't they? (I read that these days even cleaners get about 5 USD/h in the bigger cities. But that's not because cleaners are more productive, but because non-traded sectors get a case of Baumol's cost disease.)
- xroche 9y ago> “We can produce the wine at lower cost because salaries are less,” And also in many cases, because illegal immigrants, who work in these vineyards, are treated in such poor conditions, close to slavery, that salaries can not be matched without breaking labor laws.
- eps 9y agoIn Spain? _Illegal_ immigrants? As in those who crossed the border without the state noticing? Are you sure or are you extrapolating?
- gumby 9y agoAfrican migrants come in and serve this role in Spain. You can see Africa with the naked eye from parts of Spain
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jdavis703 9y agoCan you provide some sources for this? I know this happens in the U.S. but this is my first time seeing an allegation like this for an E.U. country.
- DanBC 9y agoHave a look at eg http://www.antislaverycommissioner.co.uk/ http://www.antislaverycommissioner.co.uk/ http://www.antislaverycommissioner.co.uk/about-modern-slavery/modern-slavery-in-the-uk/ http://www.antislaverycommissioner.co.uk/about-modern-slaver... > Those who are enslaved are exploited for the financial gain of their captors. The vulnerable are made to work in cruel conditions for long hours without pay. Examples include women and girls forced into prostitution for profit, young boys made to commit criminal acts against their will and men kept in slave-like conditions in factories. > Last year there was a total of 3805 recorded victims of modern slavery in the UK, a 17% increase on the year before. Victims came from 108 different countries, with the top 3 being Albania, the UK and Vietnam (find out more on the Resources page). > In 2016 the most common types of exploitation for adults and children in the UK, where known, were labour exploitation and sexual exploitation. Individuals in the UK are exploited for labour in various places of work, from hotels to farms, boats to building sites and nail bars to cannabis factories. Labour exploitation spans the agricultural, hospitality, fishing and construction sector. In addition, people are exploited for sexual purposes, including forced prostitution, escort work and pornography.
- jnordwick 9y agoI only see nebulous claims of wines not being produced to French standards. Is there anything more specific? Maybe the French standards are wrong is Spanish originating wines are selling so well and even at similar price points.
- zdkl 9y agoDon't underestimate the emotional response from the people who've done this their entire life with the cumulated savoir-faire and effort of several generations. The grape is a huge cultural thing here. (Disclaimer: I'm french and had said emotional reaction. I don't even particularly like wine)
- dejv 9y agoIt depends on appellation. Some regions and sub regions have rules that gives them hard time producing cheap wines: things like irrigation will increase your yields, some places have limits on maximum yields or ban of mechanical harvest. All of those rules make sense in producing better wines, but it make it hard to compete on price.
- zenonu 9y agoA greater understanding of the process and supply chain that affects the products going into our body will be for the best. For any wine, if it was clear where the grapes are grown, and where the wine was made, it'd give me greater confidence in the product. This is especially true if it's a value-oriented bottle.
- riffraff 9y agofrench wines have AOC, like italian wines have DOC, and similar things exist elsewhere. That basically only guarantees the origin of the grapes/wine, not quality, so it seems (generally) implicit that if a geographical indication is not present the wines are from "unspecified" locations, isn't that enough?
- gumby 9y agoA piece of interesting trivia about the Languedoc region: its name literally means the place where people prononce "yes" as "oc" (well, "the 'oc' language"). It's as if Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas" were in a region named "the drawl zone" Actually Occitan is now a dead language, and at the time it was current, nobody pronounced "yes" as "oui" yet either. But the name persists.
- umanwizard 9y ago> Occitan is now a dead language What?? This is completely false. There are hundreds of thousands of native Occitan speakers alive today.
- wott 9y agoLOL, no. Most of the few native speakers I knew are dead. The rest is people who learn a made-up language in school as a foreign language.
- 0x4a42 9y agoThe many Occitan schools in my region are proving you wrong.
- tripa 9y agoExistence of language schools doesn't prove existence of native speakers.
- umanwizard 9y agoThe existence of native speakers proves the existence of native speakers? This isn't fake news, it's well documented -- every recent study on Occitan has estimated at least 100,000 native speakers, on the very low end. Yes, it's a very endangered language, and it might be dead in a few decades, but it's not dead yet. BTW, this only applies to France. In Val d'Aran for example (in Spain) it is an everyday language that doesn't seem at any risk of disappearing.
- krona 9y agoOver the years I learned, through trial and error, that cheap French wine hardly ever compares favorably with wine from New Zealand and Australia at the same price point. More recently it's become true of Spanish wine, too. I don't know whether it's because the French export their worst wine (or perhaps I just have no taste), but since the French themselves are drinking less of it, I can't help but think that complacency has crept in somewhere.
- the-dude 9y agoAre you aware most French / European wines are blends, while NZ/AU and South American are not?
- cycrutchfield 9y agoMost good wine in the world are blends. This is not scotch we are talking about
- anfractuosity 9y agoI was wondering what blending means with respect to wine. Does blending with wine means >1 grape variety is used, then just pressed and fermented?
- cycrutchfield 9y agoIt's complicated, but in the simplest terms it means that more than one grape variety is used. Blends can be co-fermented or fermented separately and blended after the fact (the most common).
- anfractuosity 9y agoCheers, that's very interesting! I guess fermenting separately makes a lot of sense, then you get to control the taste by blending the two in different amounts.
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- joejerryronnie 9y agoThis article highlights the real downside to progressive globalization and a major reason for the recent rise of populism (Trump, Brexit, etc). The populist message of "bringing back the good 'ol days" is an impossibility but the underlying economic frailty of large swaths of people is very real. While typically a free market fan, I do believe the pendulum has swung too far towards globalism in the last couple of decades. In general, this has vastly improved the lives of millions of very poor families in developing nations - but at a significant cost to families like blue collar Americans, leaving millions feeling that they're being left behind by technological progress, foreign labor, and politics/media that increasingly focuses on the "glamorous" US coastal cities. This is a gross oversimplification of the myriad of intertwined issues but this is the general perception for a lot of people. We'd better figure out how to address this perception and begin to work on tangible solutions soon or this type of violent response may only be the tip of the iceberg.
- deanCommie 9y agoLet's not forget that despite the improvement to the lives of the poorest people in the world, the gap between the richest and the poorest has never been greater. The wealth in the world exists for everyone to have a decent life. But as long as the middle class thinks the poor is their enemy, we will stagnate. I am deeply pessimistic about the next 10-50 years. Historically, situations like this led to revolutions, and recalibrations. But when the problem is "I can't afford the newest iPhone", not "I can't afford a loaf of bread", people are not inspired to really demand change. I think everyone is too satiated and complacent, which is why Brexit and Trump happen and the US/UK will get worse before things get better.
- tim333 9y ago>the gap between the richest and the poorest has never been greater I'm not sure that's true globally - check out "Bill Gates: Global inequality is falling faster than ever" https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/bill-gates-global-inequality-is-falling-faster-than-ever/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/bill-gates-global-ine... for example. Regarding inequalities within countries, things used to be bad that way in 1900-1920 with low taxes, then up to the 70s tax rates on the rich went up to 80 or 90%+ which reduced inequality and then that ended with Thatcher/Reagan being voted in but a high tax regime could be voted back in if people want it.
- tedmiston 9y agoAre there certain classes of products that similar things happen to in the US?
- vmarsy 9y agoThose Spanish wines that are made to look French and fool the consumer with their lavender fields etc as described in the article... Winemakers are blaming the Spanish, but there's also the French grocery stores to blame: why put the French and Spanish wines on the same shelf? Are they trying to confuse consumers because the margins on Spanish wines are much higher ? Here in the US, nearly all wine stores I've been to sorts wine per type (red, white, etc) for local wines and have a specific foreign section "France", "Australia", etc. Even regular grocery stores tend to do this too. If groceries chains did this in France, consumers would then rarely buy the Spanish wines unintentionally. I don't think the winemakers would have a hard time lobbying for at least forcing grocery stores to display foreign wines in a clearly labeled section.
- titanix2 9y agoYou're right that the stores probably play a role here. However in a typical supermarket bottle are not separated by origin: it would made little sense as most the wine comes from the country anyway. Conning customers with fake logos (for organic food for example) and misleading packaging is a very common thing. The law forbid to use some regional names[1] but creating some fake "Château Mytho" brand with the origin of the product writing in yellow 4pt font size is still totally legal. Some of this stuff is even legally organized. For example the "organic food" label of the European Union allows up to 5% non-organic in the product. The domestic label was then changed to match the European one, now allowing some "accidental" GMO. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%C3%B4l%C3%A9e https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appellation_d%27origine_contr%...
- switch007 9y ago> However in a typical supermarket bottle are not separated by origin: it would made little sense as most the wine comes from the country anyway. Do mean not separated by origin country? I thought they're mostly separated by French/area region, though? You couldn't slip one of the Spanish wines in to those sections. Though I just googled photos of carrefour and found a photo of sections like "vin entre 3 EUR et 4 EUR". That kind of layout could easily intermingle non-French wine
- faragon 9y agoA Coca-Cola Zero soft drink in a French restaurant in Paris (France) is typically 5 to 6 euro per 50 cl (even in "normal" restaurants, not in the Champs-Élysées nor the Eiffel Tower), while in Barcelona or Madrid (Spain) is 1.50 to 2 euro, being exactly the same product. So go figure with wine, or buying a lunch (2x-3x more expensive in Paris than in Madrid or Barcelona). In my opinion, that will be good for French people: they already do massive near-dumping with milk production because of their high productivity/efficiency, and they'll have to learn how to be efficient producing wine and fruits.
- justifier 9y agoanother interesting element of the wine trade across the eu was the ~2009 ruling on how rose could be produced when i was working for a wine and spirits shop on the upper east side a controversial ruling was proposed in the eu(o) it stated that rose wine, which was becoming a popular wine in the newish 'priced to drink' wine market, could subvert the costly precision of rose production, wherein for example one has to remove the skins at just the right time, with a simpler method of just mixing red and whites together french wine producers were among the leaders in lobbying against the proposal it seems france won that battle(i) (o) https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/17/rose-wine-provence-france-eu https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/mar/17/rose-wi... (i) http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/eu-abandons-plan-to-allow-blended-rose-wine-1700039.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/... .. rose=rosé ..
- altotrees 9y agoI worked in a wine shop for a while years ago. Occasional drinkers would always come in wanting French wine, but after trying Argentine malbecs or even American reds like those produced by Dave Phinney or say, K Syrah, would always prefer those over the few French wines they had tried. Granted, this is all anecdotal, and I have had some great French wines (love that they are biodynamic as well for the most part), but to my eyes the wine market is really broadening. French wines just may not hold the mystique they once did.
- csa 9y agoThis should be expected. Most new world wines like the ones you mentioned taste amazing as isolated sipping wines, but sometimes compete with food rather than complement it. Most European wines shine when consumed with food, but they often do less well as sipping wines. Note that these are broad-stroke comments, there are always exceptions, blah blah blah. That said, any skilled sommelier can serve you the archetypes as examples.
- altotrees 9y agoYou're exactly right. I meant to add that to my comment. Euro wines do usually tend to really stand out with food, and really do pair well with it as you said. Good point.
- adrianratnapala 9y agoInteresting how long it took the article to get to reporting what was supposedly "unfair" about the competition. And then it was pretty vague -- i.e. Spanish wine doesn't have to be grown by French rules. Presumably readers are supposed to assume the French rules are somehow necessary. But Spain and many other countries seem capable of producing good wine at different price points. Maybe the French just have the wrong rules?
- dmduck 9y agoChilean wine is the best!!!