7 ms·

It's fairly obvious by now that nobody wants a Touch Bar. Pro users that I know want: - A great keyboard (yes with an actual physical Escape key) - 32 GB RAM

It's fairly obvious by now that nobody wants a Touch Bar. Pro users that I know want: - A great keyboard (yes with an actual physical Escape key) - 32 GB RAM, with 64 GB optional - Common ports including boring old USB and HDMI, and a headphone jack - Good battery life at a reasonable weight compromise I hope Apple realizes the current MacBook Pro is a flop and backtracks on the many poor decisions that went into it.

clumsysmurf 9y ago
And maybe 1mm thicker in exchange for repairability
- cyphar 9y ago
  Not only does Apple not care about repairability, they actively fight against the ability for users to repair their own devices. In my mind that's probably the biggest "innovation" that Apple has pushed forward in the industry -- making it effectively impossible for users to fix and replace parts of their own devices and appliances. For example, it is currently not possible for anyone other than Apple to replace any part of the Touch Bar. And I've not seen a disassembly of the new MacBook which didn't result in damage to the Touch Bar -- requiring it to be replaced.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. It's the same for computers. You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. Especially if it's as well built as an Apple.
    - Corrado 9y ago
      I agree, however I do think it's nice to be able to upgrade your system without having to take it back to the manufacturer. I can't afford 16GB right now but in a year or two I can install more RAM and continue to use the computer. With the current Apple products even this simple type of upgrade is impossible.
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      You are pretending bad repairability is connected to reliability which does not appear to be remotely accurate.
    - imron 9y ago
      > It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime And what if you want it to last beyond its service lifetime?
      - adrianN 9y ago
        You're trying to hurt the economy or something? You're supposed to throw your stuff away at least once a year and buy buy buy!
    - cyphar 9y ago
      > Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. You can buy specialized equipment (well, not from Apple) and learn expertise. There is a plethora of evidence that the third-party repair community of car mechanics and repair technicians have more expertise in repair products than the original manufacturers. This isn't just about "car guys" this is about being able to go to a repair shop and have your car fixed, and not requiring you to send it back to Tesla for them to fix it. Same thing for computers. > They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. But they still need regular servicing. So making it less repairable is counteracting the needs of the market. All car insurance companies require drivers to have their car serviced at a particular cadence. Un-repairable cars (regardless of reliability) could be seen as a public safety hazard and/or an attempt to monopolize an industry that exists because of pre-existing laws. > You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. You're confusing reliability with repairability. Of course products shouldn't break in their service lifetime, but that has nothing to do with whether it should be possible for someone to repair a product. Products _will_ break regardless of how reliable they are, and trying to side-step that by saying "they break far less these days" is not an answer. Also, "modern" laptops make it very hard to upgrade components. If you want more memory, buy a whole new computer (RAM is soldered). If you want more storage, buy a whole new computer (SSD is soldered). If you want a newer CPU, buy a whole new computer (CPU is soldered). Not to mention that Apple is not just applying technical measures to make it hard to repair their products, they're also trying to apply legal restrictions to make it hard to repair their products. > Especially if it's as well built as an Apple. Except that's not true. Apple products incredibly frequently break (usually due to thermal stress because they don't have sufficient cooling). For the past 8 years or so, every Macbook Pro version has had recalls because the GPU or nearby components die from thermal stress. The amusing thing is that Apple didn't actually know how to fix the problem, so they would sell refurbished laptops that were sent in for GPU repair that still had faulty components (the third-party repair community figured out that it was caused by Apple using the wrong type of capacitor near the hot GPU). Oh, and Apple doesn't do data recovery at all. So if you need data recovery, you cannot get it the "official way". And remember that in new Macbooks, the SSD is soldered onto the board -- so you cannot remove it and copy the data off. By trying to create a monopoly on product repair and creating unrepairable products, they've created one of the most anti-consumer devices.
to3m 9y ago
How about ECC RAM too.
quicklyfrozen 9y ago
Is there any evidence it's a sales flop? Seems like Mac sales are up, but they don't break the numbers down by device type. I want the same things you do, but unfortunately it seems pretty unlikely to happen (except for 32GB I suppose).
- georgespencer 9y ago
  He didn't say sales flop.
  - fasquoika 9y ago
    Why would they care about any other kind of flop?
    - georgespencer 9y ago
      Because their users who are buying the device are doing so in spite of the Touchbar. MacBook Pro wasn't updated for such a long time that the Touchbar doesn't matter, there's a lot of pent up demand. But now people know it's kinda annoying in its current implementation. Make sense?
- pentae 9y ago
  The whole world was screaming for a new Apple laptop with better performance. Imagine how many more sales they would have made if Apple had not had the touch bar, kept one legacy USB A port and hdmi port, better battery life, updated specs and priced it lower than the older models. It would have sold even better.
  - graeme 9y ago
    Indeed. I bought a 2015 pro. I needed it then, but was prepared to upgrade as soon as a new one came out. Kept the 2015 version. Am waiting to see what comes next. I don't want a touch bar, and I don't relish getting a half/dozen dongles for all my peripherals. So I'm an invisible sale they should have had, but didn't.
lonnyk 9y ago
I want it and enjoy it quite a bit.
brightball 9y ago
17 inch option
dyarosla 9y ago
As much as I think they should backtrack... is there any precedent of Apple backtracking?
- ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago
  They're currently working on a Mac Pro backtrack; moving from this super-powerful tube to something modular like previous Pros
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    I wouldn't dare call such a thermally-compromised[1] computer "super-powerful" 1. http://www.anandtech.com/show/11245/apple-to-redesign-mac-pro-gpu-heat-a-concern http://www.anandtech.com/show/11245/apple-to-redesign-mac-pr...
    - ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago
      yeah I meant to put more emphasis on the locked-down tube aspect, but you're right
- marcins 9y ago
  Sort of, they’ve effectively abandoned the trash can Mac Pro and are working on a whole new design: https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives That’s the only real instance I can think of though!
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  They removed the dual drive option on the Mac mini. The Mac Pro redesign has also been mentioned. I'm sure there are other (less notable) instances of backtracking that aren't occurring to me at the moment.
- peterbecich 9y ago
  There was an iPod Shuffle model with buttons only on the headphone cable, and voice control. I believe the subsequent models were more conventional.
SomeHacker44 9y ago
I have long ranted here (check my posting profile) about the touch bar. I really don't want it, desperately. I literally stopped using my MBP without an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad at every practical opportunity. Worse, the keyboard is fragile. Mine recently had its left arrow key become stiff in one corner. I couldn't do anything to get it to go back to normal nor pry the key cap off to see if a bit of dirt had got underneath. I went to the Genius Bar which told me the keyboard was unrepairable and the only way to fix it was, literally, to replace the entire top case of the computer. He did say they could try something to fix it in the back with some special tools. The first try it was fixed, but the key cap was only half attached. The second try it was basically entirely broken and only worked with extremely hard presses. At this point the Rep said it had to be sent in for repairs. I said try it one more time. This final time it was better but still terrible and worse than when I brought it in. So I took it home, dd'd the disk to another one (use rdisk!) and dropped it off for repair. Well, a few days later I am told I need to pay $99 and use an AppleCare+ incident to fix the broken keyboard that the Genius broke. I spent hours on the phone with Apple explaining what happened. Well, two weeks later I got the laptop back because their system kept saying it's not ready despite being back at the Apple Store four days after drop off. What a total joke. I hate the new MBP, keyboard and touch bar. Give me a bit more thickness, a regular keyboard, and high repairability.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  This sounds like a ridiculously bad build quality and service for what you presumably paid.
- bouke 9y ago
  The B key had a similar issue on my 2016 MBP with Touch Bar, sometimes it wouldn't register my presses and other times it registered two presses. I took it in for repair, and indeed the whole top case was replaced. Now the B key is working again. However other keys randomly feel "smushy", "not clicking" as I press them. There can't be any dirt in the keyboard, I'm very strict on keeping my keyboards clean. Until now, the issue was resolved by bashing the keys a few times on all corners. However I'm worried that the keyboard won't last as long as to be expected of a laptop. Yay on the repairability and reliability of these new keyboards.
johnminter 9y ago
I'm with you. I have my system to do data analysis. I have a late 2013 MacBook Pro and like it, especially the SSD and the Retina display. When I upgrade I want a faster processor, more RAM (I have 16GB now). I like my keyboard with the escape key. I like my ports (incuding HDMI). Like you, I want good battery life at a reasonable weight - and I don't want major surgery required to replace that battery if needed. I don't want a walled garden of software. I don't mind a distinct authorization to run non-app store software (I break it, I own it...), but I want to run it easily. For example, I want an OS will easily let me install and run R and a current Python distribution like Anaconda. While I want my phone, iPad, and MacBook to play nicely together, I want each to be optimized for a different set of tasks.
- rabboRubble 9y ago
  I work in the same space as you. Would you buy a MacBook Pro again for your work? If not, what would you buy instead? My Mac is in the process of dying and I am struggling to commit to buying the lower end non-touch 15" MacBook Pro. I think the feature is stupid because I am a touch typist. I don't want to be hunting for an ever changing soft key. Fortunately I have a back up machine that works okay-ish but I don't like it in the same way as I enjoy working on the Mac. Would enjoy your input!
lobster_johnson 9y ago
The new Touch Bar MacBooks have apparently been selling like hot cakes, so my fear is that Apple will attribute the success to the Touch Bar and keep it on new models. The fact that they added a feature that "nobody wants" is in itself not promising, but Apple has historically always had an affinity for minor, gimmicky, and ultimately useless features (e.g. Front Row, Dashboard).
- Corrado 9y ago
  It doesn't surprise me that the new MBP with touchbar is selling well; there really isn't an option if you want a large(ish), desktop replacement machine. I bet if they had one with and one without it would be a different story.
  - phil21 9y ago
    This is true for me. My 2012 rMBP was on it's last legs and I really needed something new. Bought the 2016 15" and was forced to get the stupid touchbar. It's a useless gimmick that removed some major functionality for me (a physical escape key). The touchid is amazing and I wouldn't ever want to go back to a device without it. It's use is a $50 gimmick used for volume and brightness controls which is neato at best and frustrating at worst. Other than the touchbar the laptop would have been a solid "meh" as well. I actually enjoy USB-C only, and the large trackpad hasn't offended me like I thought it would. I don't really notice a difference though, so I don't know why it needed to be bigger. The keyboard also was a step back, but I'm pretty firmly convinced it's one step in the direction of haptic keyboards for Apple as they continue to remove physical components that break. If this holds true I'll be more forgiving as I see that is interesting tech someone needs to pursue. Battery life can also be an issue, since it's now so tied to workload. All in all a pretty disappointing extremely overpriced device that was a step back from the previous generation. If I were doing it all over again I would have picked up a 2015 rMBP (the 2012 being amongst the best laptops I've ever owned) and waited a few years to see if Apple gets it's act together again.
Razengan 9y ago
The 2016 and 2017 MacBooks have sold very well, and even outsold many competitors combined. I love the Touch Bar. It can be unexpectedly convenient and, once you allow yourself to get used to it, going back to a keyboard without one feels very antiquated actually.
- _mhr_ 9y ago
  Can you give some examples of common use-cases you run into each day?
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    Being able to control playback between Spotify, iTunes, and YouTube without moving windows around is enough of a killer feature for me.
    - torstenvl 9y ago
      This was both easier and less hackish when Dashboard worked correctly.
  - Razengan 9y ago
    I’ve moved to an iMac + iPad setup since a couple months ago, hence the comment about finding non-Touch Bar keyboards inconvenient (even though you can use the iPad as a Mac Touch Bar with Duet [1]), but from memory: - Changing brightness or volume by swiping in a single motion. - When you’re typing and get a dialog/alert, tapping on the Touch Bar is much quicker and requires less movement than moving your hand to the trackpad or mouse and clicking on a screen button. - When typing and having to choose something from a list, like the label for a contact (“Home”, “Work”), it’s again quicker to just tap on the Touch Bar than to move the mouse pointer to open the dropdown box and click on an item onscreen. - Ability to have more shortcuts with different types of controls (sliders etc.) than you can with Fn keys + modifiers, and labels/icons make it unnecessary to remember which Fn number with which modifier does what. - Show various status items on the Touch Bar and other customization with BetterTouchTool [2]. The Touch Bar is a replacement of the Fn keys, not the keyboard. It’s a complement to the keyboard and trackpad, not a secondary screen (although you can hack it to use it as one [2]). [1] https://www.duetdisplay.com https://www.duetdisplay.com [2] https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-touch-bar-customization/ https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-touch-bar-customizati...
calebm 9y ago
Agreed. I have a 2013 model, and decided to stick with it after seeing 16Gb is still the most memory available. I will not upgrade to a new Macbook until they have at least a 32Gb option.
TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
I own one, and although I don't really dislike Touch Bar, it doesn't do anything useful for me. The lack of physical esc key still feels awkward, but I think the impact is overstated a bit (not a vim user though). One minor issue is that it's too easy to bump against the trackpad or touch bar when resting your hands on the keyboard, which is slightly frustrating. I'm a huge fan of TouchID. It makes using a password manager way easier. The MacBook Pro already has a headphone jack. To share a different perspective, I'd actually disagree with you on supporting old USB and HDMI. By having 2 USB-C ports on each side you can choose what side you prefer to plug stuff in. Carrying around a dongle isn't a problem for me.
pjmlp 9y ago
I am yet to own a computer with 16 GB, let alone 32 GB. Given that Visual Studio, Netbeans/Eclipse, Android Studio work with about 4GB, what would I use all that memory for?!

clumsysmurf 9y ago

And maybe 1mm thicker in exchange for repairability

cyphar 9y ago
Not only does Apple not care about repairability, they actively fight against the ability for users to repair their own devices. In my mind that's probably the biggest "innovation" that Apple has pushed forward in the industry -- making it effectively impossible for users to fix and replace parts of their own devices and appliances. For example, it is currently not possible for anyone other than Apple to replace any part of the Touch Bar. And I've not seen a disassembly of the new MacBook which didn't result in damage to the Touch Bar -- requiring it to be replaced.
- bitwize 9y ago
  Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. It's the same for computers. You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. Especially if it's as well built as an Apple.
  - Corrado 9y ago
    I agree, however I do think it's nice to be able to upgrade your system without having to take it back to the manufacturer. I can't afford 16GB right now but in a year or two I can install more RAM and continue to use the computer. With the current Apple products even this simple type of upgrade is impossible.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    You are pretending bad repairability is connected to reliability which does not appear to be remotely accurate.
  - imron 9y ago
    > It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime And what if you want it to last beyond its service lifetime?
    - adrianN 9y ago
      You're trying to hurt the economy or something? You're supposed to throw your stuff away at least once a year and buy buy buy!
  - cyphar 9y ago
    > Modern cars suck for "car guys" because they're impossible to repair without specialized equipment and expertise. You can buy specialized equipment (well, not from Apple) and learn expertise. There is a plethora of evidence that the third-party repair community of car mechanics and repair technicians have more expertise in repair products than the original manufacturers. This isn't just about "car guys" this is about being able to go to a repair shop and have your car fixed, and not requiring you to send it back to Tesla for them to fix it. Same thing for computers. > They're great for everyone else since they need so little repair compared to cars in the past. But they still need regular servicing. So making it less repairable is counteracting the needs of the market. All car insurance companies require drivers to have their car serviced at a particular cadence. Un-repairable cars (regardless of reliability) could be seen as a public safety hazard and/or an attempt to monopolize an industry that exists because of pre-existing laws. > You shouldn't need to fix your computer. It should Just Work throughout its entire service lifetime. You're confusing reliability with repairability. Of course products shouldn't break in their service lifetime, but that has nothing to do with whether it should be possible for someone to repair a product. Products _will_ break regardless of how reliable they are, and trying to side-step that by saying "they break far less these days" is not an answer. Also, "modern" laptops make it very hard to upgrade components. If you want more memory, buy a whole new computer (RAM is soldered). If you want more storage, buy a whole new computer (SSD is soldered). If you want a newer CPU, buy a whole new computer (CPU is soldered). Not to mention that Apple is not just applying technical measures to make it hard to repair their products, they're also trying to apply legal restrictions to make it hard to repair their products. > Especially if it's as well built as an Apple. Except that's not true. Apple products incredibly frequently break (usually due to thermal stress because they don't have sufficient cooling). For the past 8 years or so, every Macbook Pro version has had recalls because the GPU or nearby components die from thermal stress. The amusing thing is that Apple didn't actually know how to fix the problem, so they would sell refurbished laptops that were sent in for GPU repair that still had faulty components (the third-party repair community figured out that it was caused by Apple using the wrong type of capacitor near the hot GPU). Oh, and Apple doesn't do data recovery at all. So if you need data recovery, you cannot get it the "official way". And remember that in new Macbooks, the SSD is soldered onto the board -- so you cannot remove it and copy the data off. By trying to create a monopoly on product repair and creating unrepairable products, they've created one of the most anti-consumer devices.

to3m 9y ago

How about ECC RAM too.

quicklyfrozen 9y ago

Is there any evidence it's a sales flop? Seems like Mac sales are up, but they don't break the numbers down by device type. I want the same things you do, but unfortunately it seems pretty unlikely to happen (except for 32GB I suppose).

georgespencer 9y ago
He didn't say sales flop.
- fasquoika 9y ago
  Why would they care about any other kind of flop?
  - georgespencer 9y ago
    Because their users who are buying the device are doing so in spite of the Touchbar. MacBook Pro wasn't updated for such a long time that the Touchbar doesn't matter, there's a lot of pent up demand. But now people know it's kinda annoying in its current implementation. Make sense?
pentae 9y ago
The whole world was screaming for a new Apple laptop with better performance. Imagine how many more sales they would have made if Apple had not had the touch bar, kept one legacy USB A port and hdmi port, better battery life, updated specs and priced it lower than the older models. It would have sold even better.
- graeme 9y ago
  Indeed. I bought a 2015 pro. I needed it then, but was prepared to upgrade as soon as a new one came out. Kept the 2015 version. Am waiting to see what comes next. I don't want a touch bar, and I don't relish getting a half/dozen dongles for all my peripherals. So I'm an invisible sale they should have had, but didn't.

lonnyk 9y ago

I want it and enjoy it quite a bit.

brightball 9y ago

17 inch option

dyarosla 9y ago

As much as I think they should backtrack... is there any precedent of Apple backtracking?

ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago
They're currently working on a Mac Pro backtrack; moving from this super-powerful tube to something modular like previous Pros
- sangnoir 9y ago
  I wouldn't dare call such a thermally-compromised[1] computer "super-powerful" 1. http://www.anandtech.com/show/11245/apple-to-redesign-mac-pro-gpu-heat-a-concern http://www.anandtech.com/show/11245/apple-to-redesign-mac-pr...
  - ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago
    yeah I meant to put more emphasis on the locked-down tube aspect, but you're right
marcins 9y ago
Sort of, they’ve effectively abandoned the trash can Mac Pro and are working on a whole new design: https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives That’s the only real instance I can think of though!
alsetmusic 9y ago
They removed the dual drive option on the Mac mini. The Mac Pro redesign has also been mentioned. I'm sure there are other (less notable) instances of backtracking that aren't occurring to me at the moment.
peterbecich 9y ago
There was an iPod Shuffle model with buttons only on the headphone cable, and voice control. I believe the subsequent models were more conventional.

SomeHacker44 9y ago

I have long ranted here (check my posting profile) about the touch bar. I really don't want it, desperately. I literally stopped using my MBP without an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad at every practical opportunity. Worse, the keyboard is fragile. Mine recently had its left arrow key become stiff in one corner. I couldn't do anything to get it to go back to normal nor pry the key cap off to see if a bit of dirt had got underneath. I went to the Genius Bar which told me the keyboard was unrepairable and the only way to fix it was, literally, to replace the entire top case of the computer. He did say they could try something to fix it in the back with some special tools. The first try it was fixed, but the key cap was only half attached. The second try it was basically entirely broken and only worked with extremely hard presses. At this point the Rep said it had to be sent in for repairs. I said try it one more time. This final time it was better but still terrible and worse than when I brought it in. So I took it home, dd'd the disk to another one (use rdisk!) and dropped it off for repair. Well, a few days later I am told I need to pay $99 and use an AppleCare+ incident to fix the broken keyboard that the Genius broke. I spent hours on the phone with Apple explaining what happened. Well, two weeks later I got the laptop back because their system kept saying it's not ready despite being back at the Apple Store four days after drop off. What a total joke. I hate the new MBP, keyboard and touch bar. Give me a bit more thickness, a regular keyboard, and high repairability.

michaelmrose 9y ago
This sounds like a ridiculously bad build quality and service for what you presumably paid.
bouke 9y ago
The B key had a similar issue on my 2016 MBP with Touch Bar, sometimes it wouldn't register my presses and other times it registered two presses. I took it in for repair, and indeed the whole top case was replaced. Now the B key is working again. However other keys randomly feel "smushy", "not clicking" as I press them. There can't be any dirt in the keyboard, I'm very strict on keeping my keyboards clean. Until now, the issue was resolved by bashing the keys a few times on all corners. However I'm worried that the keyboard won't last as long as to be expected of a laptop. Yay on the repairability and reliability of these new keyboards.

johnminter 9y ago

I'm with you. I have my system to do data analysis. I have a late 2013 MacBook Pro and like it, especially the SSD and the Retina display. When I upgrade I want a faster processor, more RAM (I have 16GB now). I like my keyboard with the escape key. I like my ports (incuding HDMI). Like you, I want good battery life at a reasonable weight - and I don't want major surgery required to replace that battery if needed. I don't want a walled garden of software. I don't mind a distinct authorization to run non-app store software (I break it, I own it...), but I want to run it easily. For example, I want an OS will easily let me install and run R and a current Python distribution like Anaconda. While I want my phone, iPad, and MacBook to play nicely together, I want each to be optimized for a different set of tasks.

rabboRubble 9y ago
I work in the same space as you. Would you buy a MacBook Pro again for your work? If not, what would you buy instead? My Mac is in the process of dying and I am struggling to commit to buying the lower end non-touch 15" MacBook Pro. I think the feature is stupid because I am a touch typist. I don't want to be hunting for an ever changing soft key. Fortunately I have a back up machine that works okay-ish but I don't like it in the same way as I enjoy working on the Mac. Would enjoy your input!

lobster_johnson 9y ago

The new Touch Bar MacBooks have apparently been selling like hot cakes, so my fear is that Apple will attribute the success to the Touch Bar and keep it on new models. The fact that they added a feature that "nobody wants" is in itself not promising, but Apple has historically always had an affinity for minor, gimmicky, and ultimately useless features (e.g. Front Row, Dashboard).

Corrado 9y ago
It doesn't surprise me that the new MBP with touchbar is selling well; there really isn't an option if you want a large(ish), desktop replacement machine. I bet if they had one with and one without it would be a different story.
- phil21 9y ago
  This is true for me. My 2012 rMBP was on it's last legs and I really needed something new. Bought the 2016 15" and was forced to get the stupid touchbar. It's a useless gimmick that removed some major functionality for me (a physical escape key). The touchid is amazing and I wouldn't ever want to go back to a device without it. It's use is a $50 gimmick used for volume and brightness controls which is neato at best and frustrating at worst. Other than the touchbar the laptop would have been a solid "meh" as well. I actually enjoy USB-C only, and the large trackpad hasn't offended me like I thought it would. I don't really notice a difference though, so I don't know why it needed to be bigger. The keyboard also was a step back, but I'm pretty firmly convinced it's one step in the direction of haptic keyboards for Apple as they continue to remove physical components that break. If this holds true I'll be more forgiving as I see that is interesting tech someone needs to pursue. Battery life can also be an issue, since it's now so tied to workload. All in all a pretty disappointing extremely overpriced device that was a step back from the previous generation. If I were doing it all over again I would have picked up a 2015 rMBP (the 2012 being amongst the best laptops I've ever owned) and waited a few years to see if Apple gets it's act together again.

Razengan 9y ago

The 2016 and 2017 MacBooks have sold very well, and even outsold many competitors combined. I love the Touch Bar. It can be unexpectedly convenient and, once you allow yourself to get used to it, going back to a keyboard without one feels very antiquated actually.

_mhr_ 9y ago
Can you give some examples of common use-cases you run into each day?
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  Being able to control playback between Spotify, iTunes, and YouTube without moving windows around is enough of a killer feature for me.
  - torstenvl 9y ago
    This was both easier and less hackish when Dashboard worked correctly.
- Razengan 9y ago
  I’ve moved to an iMac + iPad setup since a couple months ago, hence the comment about finding non-Touch Bar keyboards inconvenient (even though you can use the iPad as a Mac Touch Bar with Duet [1]), but from memory: - Changing brightness or volume by swiping in a single motion. - When you’re typing and get a dialog/alert, tapping on the Touch Bar is much quicker and requires less movement than moving your hand to the trackpad or mouse and clicking on a screen button. - When typing and having to choose something from a list, like the label for a contact (“Home”, “Work”), it’s again quicker to just tap on the Touch Bar than to move the mouse pointer to open the dropdown box and click on an item onscreen. - Ability to have more shortcuts with different types of controls (sliders etc.) than you can with Fn keys + modifiers, and labels/icons make it unnecessary to remember which Fn number with which modifier does what. - Show various status items on the Touch Bar and other customization with BetterTouchTool [2]. The Touch Bar is a replacement of the Fn keys, not the keyboard. It’s a complement to the keyboard and trackpad, not a secondary screen (although you can hack it to use it as one [2]). [1] https://www.duetdisplay.com https://www.duetdisplay.com [2] https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-touch-bar-customization/ https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-touch-bar-customizati...

calebm 9y ago

Agreed. I have a 2013 model, and decided to stick with it after seeing 16Gb is still the most memory available. I will not upgrade to a new Macbook until they have at least a 32Gb option.

TheAceOfHearts 9y ago

I own one, and although I don't really dislike Touch Bar, it doesn't do anything useful for me. The lack of physical esc key still feels awkward, but I think the impact is overstated a bit (not a vim user though). One minor issue is that it's too easy to bump against the trackpad or touch bar when resting your hands on the keyboard, which is slightly frustrating. I'm a huge fan of TouchID. It makes using a password manager way easier. The MacBook Pro already has a headphone jack. To share a different perspective, I'd actually disagree with you on supporting old USB and HDMI. By having 2 USB-C ports on each side you can choose what side you prefer to plug stuff in. Carrying around a dongle isn't a problem for me.

pjmlp 9y ago

I am yet to own a computer with 16 GB, let alone 32 GB. Given that Visual Studio, Netbeans/Eclipse, Android Studio work with about 4GB, what would I use all that memory for?!