4 ms·

Presumably large changes in throttle input (such as lifting off considerably as the mapping expected Alonso to do through the Pouhon corner) - as opposed to sma

by DC-3 9y ago

Presumably large changes in throttle input (such as lifting off considerably as the mapping expected Alonso to do through the Pouhon corner) - as opposed to small variations in input which the driver would use to keep the car stable and under traction.

Bromskloss 9y ago
Oh, that makes sense. I didn't think of that interpretation.
avh02 9y ago
Any ideas if there's some regulation stopping more accurate methods of figuring out where they are on the track than through such a strange system? It would not be my go-to method of navigating a track.
- njharman 9y ago
  What would be better? GPS is inaccurate and probably has issues with the speed they are going, they'd have to some estimate of actual position based on average velocity. I think they want to know the instant they are out of turn. Sensor in the vehicle is way more responsive and reliable than anything remote (EM emission based).
  - avh02 9y ago
    I get that, but even mid-2000s consumer cars have position sensors on the steering wheel and very accurate rotation sensors on each individual wheel (mainly for stability control), I'm sure some combination of this would allow them to build a fairly accurate dead reckoning system... Definitely better than stomp based navigation I'd hope
  - dlp211 9y ago
    Use an RFID system similar to how EZPass works. Or they can use a lGPS system that supplements GPS data for increased accuracy and decreased latency. Or they can factor in odometer data into the algorithm. Those are just three ideas off the top of my head. There are certainly technical challenges with all of this stuff, but they are driving some of the most technically sophisticated machines on the planet.
  - Bromskloss 9y ago
    I was thinking that accelerometers would make sense for counting curves. Then again, maybe they wanted to detect the transition from corner entry to corner exit, and apply the funky extra motors precisely there.
  - disordinary 9y ago
    They probably have hundreds of sensors, the FIA certainly has a lot of information that they use when assessing incidents, but this was enough to throw the entire algorithm of multiple sensors off.
- DC-3 9y ago
  My understanding is that GPS is outlawed for safety reasons. I don't understand why other parameters couldn't also be used though - hence why this failure is so baffling. Further Discussion can be found at /r/Formula1 [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/
- logronoide 9y ago
  I think the method is accurate, but Alonso did not repeat the previous pattern. Sounds strange, because everything is tested beforehand. Alonso had to do something completely different in that turn because he found a new way to reach the limits of the track with the car. How? That's the strange thing.
  - DC-3 9y ago
    If your method does not account for racing drivers pushing the limits then it is not accurate.
    - logronoide 9y ago
      Ok, you are right. In an environment where everything is measured and controlled like F1 a driver still can cross the limits. That's what is really weird about Alonso.
  - anoother 9y ago
    It boils down to what is I think it's one of McLaren's major roadblocks right now - lack of integration with the engine supplier. Alonso (or others in the team) had likely run Pouhon flat in a simulator. He, and his engineers, knew it was within the realm of possibility for the car. But, to what level of detail do McLaren's simulations model the energy system? Do they run real ECU code/parameters? Probably not.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Driver aids are banned in F1 to maximise the importance of driver skill. There are no anti-lock brakes or traction control. To maintain the integrity of this rule, F1 car electronics are heavily regulated. The ECU is a sealed unit made by a single supplier. It has a finite number of sensor inputs and can only use relatively simple algorithms to control the power output. Mechanics can pre-program throttle curves for a particular track, drivers can tweak the throttle mapping mid-lap using their steering wheel controls, but the ECU can't do anything that could be regarded as "intelligent".
- m1dnigh7 9y ago
  Why can't they just put cameras in the track and determine position like that?
- exDM69 9y ago
  They have incredibly accurate position data (GPS + radio beacons, etc) but that can't be used to control the engine map. The engine map has a finite number of allowed inputs and a bunch of restrictions they must adhere to. For example it must be monotonic so that more throttle pedal input means more torque to the wheels. The engine map can not do anything based on track position, but the drivers regularly change engine maps while on track, especially in qualifying.

by DC-3 9y ago

Bromskloss 9y ago

Oh, that makes sense. I didn't think of that interpretation.

avh02 9y ago

Any ideas if there's some regulation stopping more accurate methods of figuring out where they are on the track than through such a strange system? It would not be my go-to method of navigating a track.

njharman 9y ago
What would be better? GPS is inaccurate and probably has issues with the speed they are going, they'd have to some estimate of actual position based on average velocity. I think they want to know the instant they are out of turn. Sensor in the vehicle is way more responsive and reliable than anything remote (EM emission based).
- avh02 9y ago
  I get that, but even mid-2000s consumer cars have position sensors on the steering wheel and very accurate rotation sensors on each individual wheel (mainly for stability control), I'm sure some combination of this would allow them to build a fairly accurate dead reckoning system... Definitely better than stomp based navigation I'd hope
- dlp211 9y ago
  Use an RFID system similar to how EZPass works. Or they can use a lGPS system that supplements GPS data for increased accuracy and decreased latency. Or they can factor in odometer data into the algorithm. Those are just three ideas off the top of my head. There are certainly technical challenges with all of this stuff, but they are driving some of the most technically sophisticated machines on the planet.
- Bromskloss 9y ago
  I was thinking that accelerometers would make sense for counting curves. Then again, maybe they wanted to detect the transition from corner entry to corner exit, and apply the funky extra motors precisely there.
- disordinary 9y ago
  They probably have hundreds of sensors, the FIA certainly has a lot of information that they use when assessing incidents, but this was enough to throw the entire algorithm of multiple sensors off.
DC-3 9y ago
My understanding is that GPS is outlawed for safety reasons. I don't understand why other parameters couldn't also be used though - hence why this failure is so baffling. Further Discussion can be found at /r/Formula1 [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/6w6vp5/
logronoide 9y ago
I think the method is accurate, but Alonso did not repeat the previous pattern. Sounds strange, because everything is tested beforehand. Alonso had to do something completely different in that turn because he found a new way to reach the limits of the track with the car. How? That's the strange thing.
- DC-3 9y ago
  If your method does not account for racing drivers pushing the limits then it is not accurate.
  - logronoide 9y ago
    Ok, you are right. In an environment where everything is measured and controlled like F1 a driver still can cross the limits. That's what is really weird about Alonso.
- anoother 9y ago
  It boils down to what is I think it's one of McLaren's major roadblocks right now - lack of integration with the engine supplier. Alonso (or others in the team) had likely run Pouhon flat in a simulator. He, and his engineers, knew it was within the realm of possibility for the car. But, to what level of detail do McLaren's simulations model the energy system? Do they run real ECU code/parameters? Probably not.
jdietrich 9y ago
Driver aids are banned in F1 to maximise the importance of driver skill. There are no anti-lock brakes or traction control. To maintain the integrity of this rule, F1 car electronics are heavily regulated. The ECU is a sealed unit made by a single supplier. It has a finite number of sensor inputs and can only use relatively simple algorithms to control the power output. Mechanics can pre-program throttle curves for a particular track, drivers can tweak the throttle mapping mid-lap using their steering wheel controls, but the ECU can't do anything that could be regarded as "intelligent".
m1dnigh7 9y ago
Why can't they just put cameras in the track and determine position like that?
exDM69 9y ago
They have incredibly accurate position data (GPS + radio beacons, etc) but that can't be used to control the engine map. The engine map has a finite number of allowed inputs and a bunch of restrictions they must adhere to. For example it must be monotonic so that more throttle pedal input means more torque to the wheels. The engine map can not do anything based on track position, but the drivers regularly change engine maps while on track, especially in qualifying.