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Thanks for that link. I'll have a look. But why can't we act on multiple fronts? We can do many things to reduce our carbon foot print, and choosing not to eat

Thanks for that link. I'll have a look. But why can't we act on multiple fronts? We can do many things to reduce our carbon foot print, and choosing not to eat meat or reducing it is one of those things. Our meat consumption is a big problem environmentally - see https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meat-and-environment/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/meat-and-environm... Also, the way we farm animals now a days is completely different to when your grand parents farmed them. Using factory farming to feed the world is just not sustainable. Look, I get it - most people can't give up meat, we're addicted to it and it's also cultural. But what we can do is giving a signal to the market that we demand better, by choosing to buy alternatives that are better on many fronts, like Beyond Meat etc. That's why I really admire the work by Ethan Brown, he's trying to create meat using plant protein. You should watch the presentation by him I posted earlier - you might find it interesting.

pier25 9y ago
BTW the problem is not really meat production (as far as emissions go) but beef production. http://imgur.com/a/Rwm5R http://imgur.com/a/Rwm5R > But why can't we act on multiple fronts? Yes, as long as we don't forget where the big problem really lies and we also act there. I've met quite a number of vegetarians that believe that not eating meat is the solution to all problems. Of course they fly to Thailand for their yoga retreat, buy food at supermarkets, buy products that have been transported all over the world, and a very long etcetera. It's easy to ride on the moral high ground of vegetarianism blindly ignoring every other facet of our modern lifestyle. From a seemingly benign Google search, to watching a movie at the theatre. I don't like to touch this subject but another big and controversial issue is having kids. Every kid we put on this planet will produce a number of tons of CO2. About 7 on average, about 20 for a US kid. http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_emissions.png http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_em... So can we act on multiple fronts? Can we remove a glass of water from a sinking ship at the same that we pour buckets of water in it? You tell me.
- cryodesign 9y ago
  If you multiply that glass of water times a million - it will have an impact. Every Little Helps so they say here. Also, what is the point of having a moral high ground? It doesn't accomplish anything. Even if some people's motivation for not eating meat is to feel morally superior, it shouldn't be a deciding factor for others to not eat meat. For me personally it's about values[1]. I remember watching Star Trek as a kid and I think Riker said something along the lines that humanity doesn't enslave animals anymore[3]. We need a vision for the future and not oppressing and exploiting other beings for our own culinary pleasures is a good value to have I think. We don't have to wait until the 24th century either. The future is already here, it's easier now than ever to choose not to kill animals, there are so many other delicious recipes[2] out there - if one would invest the time to research this. And in terms of having kids - I think it was Hans Rosling who said that birth rates seem to fall in the developed countries. Also, imagine we would show a toddler how his sausages etc are made - from beginning to end. How do you think small kids would react if they knew what actually happens to peppa pig and friends? Why don't we show our kids the process of producing meat? ------------ [1] Best quote on this is from Dr Alex Hershaft. Holocaust survivor and FARM founder. He drew many similarities between what the Nazis did and what we do to farm animals. His story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dZv43A0g0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dZv43A0g0 His quote: "[...]It's about us. It's about who we are, how we treat the least defensible, the most oppressed, the weakest in our society. What does it say about us?" [2] http://annajones.co.uk/books http://annajones.co.uk/books [3] EDIT: found that Riker quote from TNG: https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s
  - ahartman00 9y ago
    You guys have both made some good points here. However imo, you are kind of arguing past each other. (I hope you are not offended by my critique) I think pier25's point is we should spend our time advocating for the most important issues. See the forest, dont focus on one tree. It is true that beef has a large impact, but maybe time would be better spent advocating renewable energy subsidies and or carbon taxes? You can only complain so much before people get sick of you right? :P However I think their point was weakened by the anecdotes about vegetarians who do other unsustainable things and calling them delusional. I think cryodesign's point is that every little bit counts. The forest is made up of trees after all. And it easier to avoid meat than it is to invent renewable power that can provide base load.(well I love meat, but I have been reducing my beef consumption) I think they focused too much on how it feels. You can humanely kill an animal imo. As someone who grew up on a farm, I found the quote about killing them with a pipe unbelievable.

pier25 9y ago

BTW the problem is not really meat production (as far as emissions go) but beef production. http://imgur.com/a/Rwm5R http://imgur.com/a/Rwm5R > But why can't we act on multiple fronts? Yes, as long as we don't forget where the big problem really lies and we also act there. I've met quite a number of vegetarians that believe that not eating meat is the solution to all problems. Of course they fly to Thailand for their yoga retreat, buy food at supermarkets, buy products that have been transported all over the world, and a very long etcetera. It's easy to ride on the moral high ground of vegetarianism blindly ignoring every other facet of our modern lifestyle. From a seemingly benign Google search, to watching a movie at the theatre. I don't like to touch this subject but another big and controversial issue is having kids. Every kid we put on this planet will produce a number of tons of CO2. About 7 on average, about 20 for a US kid. http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_emissions.png http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_em... So can we act on multiple fronts? Can we remove a glass of water from a sinking ship at the same that we pour buckets of water in it? You tell me.

cryodesign 9y ago
If you multiply that glass of water times a million - it will have an impact. Every Little Helps so they say here. Also, what is the point of having a moral high ground? It doesn't accomplish anything. Even if some people's motivation for not eating meat is to feel morally superior, it shouldn't be a deciding factor for others to not eat meat. For me personally it's about values[1]. I remember watching Star Trek as a kid and I think Riker said something along the lines that humanity doesn't enslave animals anymore[3]. We need a vision for the future and not oppressing and exploiting other beings for our own culinary pleasures is a good value to have I think. We don't have to wait until the 24th century either. The future is already here, it's easier now than ever to choose not to kill animals, there are so many other delicious recipes[2] out there - if one would invest the time to research this. And in terms of having kids - I think it was Hans Rosling who said that birth rates seem to fall in the developed countries. Also, imagine we would show a toddler how his sausages etc are made - from beginning to end. How do you think small kids would react if they knew what actually happens to peppa pig and friends? Why don't we show our kids the process of producing meat? ------------ [1] Best quote on this is from Dr Alex Hershaft. Holocaust survivor and FARM founder. He drew many similarities between what the Nazis did and what we do to farm animals. His story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dZv43A0g0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7dZv43A0g0 His quote: "[...]It's about us. It's about who we are, how we treat the least defensible, the most oppressed, the weakest in our society. What does it say about us?" [2] http://annajones.co.uk/books http://annajones.co.uk/books [3] EDIT: found that Riker quote from TNG: https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s https://youtu.be/sS7NRtEJBcA?t=31s
- ahartman00 9y ago
  You guys have both made some good points here. However imo, you are kind of arguing past each other. (I hope you are not offended by my critique) I think pier25's point is we should spend our time advocating for the most important issues. See the forest, dont focus on one tree. It is true that beef has a large impact, but maybe time would be better spent advocating renewable energy subsidies and or carbon taxes? You can only complain so much before people get sick of you right? :P However I think their point was weakened by the anecdotes about vegetarians who do other unsustainable things and calling them delusional. I think cryodesign's point is that every little bit counts. The forest is made up of trees after all. And it easier to avoid meat than it is to invent renewable power that can provide base load.(well I love meat, but I have been reducing my beef consumption) I think they focused too much on how it feels. You can humanely kill an animal imo. As someone who grew up on a farm, I found the quote about killing them with a pipe unbelievable.