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Compare it to cash and coins seems the most appropriate. How much energy does harvesting cotton, making into bills, and distributing it all over the place take?

Compare it to cash and coins seems the most appropriate. How much energy does harvesting cotton, making into bills, and distributing it all over the place take? Don't forget those fun armoired trucks that have to cart it from place to place. Pennies famously cost more than $0.01 to produce because of the cost of metal. Metal that has to be dug out of the earth, trucked, smelted, trucked, stamped, trucked again.

lemonycracket 9y ago
This. That site is spreading FUD and fails to show the true impact (in terms of energy and lives) of the current legacy financial system. Next thing you know they will demand you register carbon credits to run a mining rig.
hwillis 9y ago
According to this it costs almost 21 cents to "make" a dollar of bitcoins. According to the mint's 2015 annual report[1] they made 1,114 million dollars in circulating coins at a cost of .51 cents per dollar in coins. However bills cost 4.9 cents/dollar for $1 bills and half a cent per dollar for $20 bills. So the vast majority of money is much, much cheaper than a bitcoin. [1]: https://www.usmint.gov/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015AnnualReport.pdf https://www.usmint.gov/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/...
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  That's to make it. What about trucking it around, accounting for it, securing it, etc.?
  - rspeer 9y ago
    So many Bitcoin fans, so many "whatabouts". I would say the burden is on you to show that producing and moving cash requires ludicrous amounts of energy like Bitcoin does. It sounds unlikely.
- acchow 9y ago
  I don't agree with the comparison to "making" coins or cash. Coins and cash actually get consumed as they degrade and/or get lost or destroyed. You need to replenish the supply. But you can circulate bitcoin forever. You need to compare transactions. How do I send you cash? You can give me an address to meet you at. We both drive our cars or take public transit there and consume some amount of energy and time to meet up. Then I give you cash. Or you could just tell me a bitcoin address to send to.
  - egypturnash 9y ago
    I can also put that cash in a sufficiently opaque and uninteresting-looking envelope, put it in the mail, and the Post Office will take over. There is time and energy cost incurred, but it is a cost already being paid. Mostly by advertising, right now, since an assortment of lawmakers have decided in their infinite wisdom that it's not something our tax dollars should be supporting any more.
- rdlecler1 9y ago
  Yes, but you have to make new bills to replace old bills.
alister 9y ago
A literal comparison to paper bills isn't quite right. A small sheet of linen/cotton paper could represent $1, $100, or hundreds of millions of dollars (eg., a stock certificate of a million shares of Apple stock). You have to compare Bitcoin to the concept of money, like U.S. dollars, but not literally the paper. A comparison to bars of gold is OK however since that is money and not a representation.
- SamBam 9y ago
  > A comparison to bars of gold is OK however since that is money and not a representation. Bars of gold certainly are a "representation" of money. They are only worth something so long as we all say they are. (Besides the little bit of intrinsic value from electrical wiring.) If people stopped saying gold was worth anything, it wouldn't be.
colordrops 9y ago
Cash and coins are not a store of value and are also a fiat currency associated with a central authority. Gold is a better analogy.
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  You can't buy a pizza with gold. You can with cash. BTC is trying to do both, and is failing as a store of value right now due to volatility though that may change.
  - colordrops 9y ago
    It's neither cash nor gold, but shares more properties with gold. And it certainly is not failing as a store of value, with a steady increase in value over an appropriate time window. Btw, you can buy pizza with gold, I guarantee someone will take your gold for pizza.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    I'm pretty confident that you will find more pizza places that would be willing to sell for gold than for bitcoin. War economy also functions on gold.

lemonycracket 9y ago

This. That site is spreading FUD and fails to show the true impact (in terms of energy and lives) of the current legacy financial system. Next thing you know they will demand you register carbon credits to run a mining rig.

hwillis 9y ago

According to this it costs almost 21 cents to "make" a dollar of bitcoins. According to the mint's 2015 annual report[1] they made 1,114 million dollars in circulating coins at a cost of .51 cents per dollar in coins. However bills cost 4.9 cents/dollar for $1 bills and half a cent per dollar for $20 bills. So the vast majority of money is much, much cheaper than a bitcoin. [1]: https://www.usmint.gov/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015AnnualReport.pdf https://www.usmint.gov/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/...

IgorPartola 9y ago
That's to make it. What about trucking it around, accounting for it, securing it, etc.?
- rspeer 9y ago
  So many Bitcoin fans, so many "whatabouts". I would say the burden is on you to show that producing and moving cash requires ludicrous amounts of energy like Bitcoin does. It sounds unlikely.
acchow 9y ago
I don't agree with the comparison to "making" coins or cash. Coins and cash actually get consumed as they degrade and/or get lost or destroyed. You need to replenish the supply. But you can circulate bitcoin forever. You need to compare transactions. How do I send you cash? You can give me an address to meet you at. We both drive our cars or take public transit there and consume some amount of energy and time to meet up. Then I give you cash. Or you could just tell me a bitcoin address to send to.
- egypturnash 9y ago
  I can also put that cash in a sufficiently opaque and uninteresting-looking envelope, put it in the mail, and the Post Office will take over. There is time and energy cost incurred, but it is a cost already being paid. Mostly by advertising, right now, since an assortment of lawmakers have decided in their infinite wisdom that it's not something our tax dollars should be supporting any more.
rdlecler1 9y ago
Yes, but you have to make new bills to replace old bills.

alister 9y ago

A literal comparison to paper bills isn't quite right. A small sheet of linen/cotton paper could represent $1, $100, or hundreds of millions of dollars (eg., a stock certificate of a million shares of Apple stock). You have to compare Bitcoin to the concept of money, like U.S. dollars, but not literally the paper. A comparison to bars of gold is OK however since that is money and not a representation.

SamBam 9y ago
> A comparison to bars of gold is OK however since that is money and not a representation. Bars of gold certainly are a "representation" of money. They are only worth something so long as we all say they are. (Besides the little bit of intrinsic value from electrical wiring.) If people stopped saying gold was worth anything, it wouldn't be.

colordrops 9y ago

Cash and coins are not a store of value and are also a fiat currency associated with a central authority. Gold is a better analogy.

IgorPartola 9y ago
You can't buy a pizza with gold. You can with cash. BTC is trying to do both, and is failing as a store of value right now due to volatility though that may change.
- colordrops 9y ago
  It's neither cash nor gold, but shares more properties with gold. And it certainly is not failing as a store of value, with a steady increase in value over an appropriate time window. Btw, you can buy pizza with gold, I guarantee someone will take your gold for pizza.
- Tomte 9y ago
  I'm pretty confident that you will find more pizza places that would be willing to sell for gold than for bitcoin. War economy also functions on gold.