4 ms·

Electric cars do not remove pollution - they are not trees. They merely pollute at a greatly reduced rate.

BoorishBears 9y ago
>removing pollution from cities They move the pollution from a tailpipe feet away from people to a large smoke stack specially optimized to lower the effect on air quality in the immediate area.
- stephengillie 9y ago
  Combustion is just one type of pollution that cars produce. And while relocating pollution is a tempting way to externalize the problem, it doesn't solve the underlying issue.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    It reduces overall emissions by a lot, and saves thousands of lives even beyond that. Dismissing any solution that doesn't 100% fix everything is a great way to never accomplish anything.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    I don't know why you're stretching so hard to make it seem like moving pollution away from population centers isn't an excellent benefit and likely to reduce in many fewer deaths from direct exposure to pollution. The comment above was referring to local pollution in cities (which directly kills thousands through diseases related to particulates in that pollution). Relocating that pollution does solve that problem. (PH)EVs also produce much less particulate pollution from brake dust due to the use of regen to brake (which is why they can go several times the normal replacement interval for brake pads). The creation of pollution is a separate problem from the location of that pollution. Yes, EVs don't magically prevent the creation of pollution, but they can severely limit the creation of pollution in population centers, where they have the most immediate effect.
    - stephengillie 9y ago
      I live in a city and am not dying, in fact the air quality is very good. Do people who can afford electric cars live in the same cities where pollution is so bad that people are dying from it? Why don't they move to where the air quality is better? (Why move from a problem when you can make the problem move from you, I guess?) When the majority of pollution is coming from large trucks anyway, will swapping a few cars even matter?
      - greglindahl 9y ago
        Big city air can look great and still kill young children and old folks due to small particles. Most cities in Europe have terrible air thanks to the popularity of diesel autos, the low standards for pollution controls, and European governments being willing to ignore automakers who break the rules. Do you have a source for most pollution coming from large trucks?
        stephengillie 9y ago
        Simply from the weight they carry, the energy required for this. Supplying a large city is neither cheap nor easy, and requires dozens or hundreds of daily shipments from dozens or hundreds of logistics companies. The majority of these happen during off-peak hours, to reduce load on the highway network. Lithium batteries still can't approach 10% of gasoline's energy density, so gasoline is mandatory for trucks, and will be until yet another new battery technology is not only discovered and brought to market, but mass-produced to the point that we have a battery-pollution problem. > the low standards for pollution controls Why don't they increase the standards? If people are dying there must be public outrage. Does Universal Healthcare cover pollution injuries? > European governments being willing to ignore automakers who break the rules. Are people protesting or working to change their governmental leadership? Or are they content to see their loved ones perish? If diesel cars are such a problem, why not outlaw these? Then only outlaws will drive them. Do you have a source for particulates killing children in cities?
        9y ago
  - aoeusnth1 9y ago
    I thought the underlying issue was people dying from exposure to pollution? Or is that not something that you're concerned about?
  - stupidcar 9y ago
    It solves the problem of exposing hundreds of millions of people to multiple emission sources of highly deleterious fine particulates in their immediate vicinity, every single day. It's not rocket science, it's an obvious fact, and not a single person posting here can honestly claim not to understand it. Ignoring or downplaying it is a near criminal act of negligence.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  > They move the pollution from a tailpipe feet away from people You can't move non-existent pollution. It hasn't occurred yet, so there's no "movement". Electric cars create pollution displaced from the location the car is used in.
  - manmal 9y ago
    Are you saying that gasoline cars do not pollute? Check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22126432 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22126432 Electric cars can be (and are) charged with power generated with low pollution methods (solar, wind, water turbine...), while a gasoline, or worse, diesel powered car, will always pollute. Additionally, e-cars are more power efficient, even after subtracting line and charging heat losses. Coal burning power plants are a problem on their own (e.g. high mercury emissions), so those should be shut down entirely IMO, and not be used to cover e-car power demands. They are problematic anyway because they can not change their output much, making them inflexible for modern requirements.
    - dingo_bat 9y ago
      No I am not saying gasoline cars don't pollute. I making the pedantic point that saying "electric cars move the pollution" is technically inaccurate. It is better to say "electric cars pollute in places physically displaced from where they are used".
      - barrkel 9y ago
        Any normal reading of English would understand a world before electric cars, and a world after electric cars, as having moved pollution. We're talking at a higher level of abstraction, where the mover is a change in the mix of polluters.
geezerjay 9y ago
> Electric cars do not remove pollution - they are not trees. They merely pollute at a greatly reduced rate. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that electric cars are replacing cars powered by an internal combustion engine. If you replace an IC engine with an electric motor then that source of pollution is removed, don't you agree? Furthermore, electric cars typically get their power from the national power grid, which generates power in a much more efficient way than your typical IC engine. On top of that, nowadays any power grid is being supplied by sources other fossil fuels. This shift away from fossil fuels towards renewable energy sources is being spearheaded by the European Union and reflected by their national action plans. This already resulted in some EU member-states breaking green energy records such as: * covering around 35% of their national power generation from renewable sources http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-green-technology-record-power-generation-35-per-cent-renewables-solar-wind-turbines-a7820156.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-green... * running the entire country over 4 days straight on renewable energy alone https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal-runs-for-four-days-straight-on-renewable-energy-alone https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal... This is the energy production that is powering electric vehicles.

>removing pollution from cities They move the pollution from a tailpipe feet away from people to a large smoke stack specially optimized to lower the effect on air quality in the immediate area.

stephengillie 9y ago
Combustion is just one type of pollution that cars produce. And while relocating pollution is a tempting way to externalize the problem, it doesn't solve the underlying issue.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  It reduces overall emissions by a lot, and saves thousands of lives even beyond that. Dismissing any solution that doesn't 100% fix everything is a great way to never accomplish anything.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  I don't know why you're stretching so hard to make it seem like moving pollution away from population centers isn't an excellent benefit and likely to reduce in many fewer deaths from direct exposure to pollution. The comment above was referring to local pollution in cities (which directly kills thousands through diseases related to particulates in that pollution). Relocating that pollution does solve that problem. (PH)EVs also produce much less particulate pollution from brake dust due to the use of regen to brake (which is why they can go several times the normal replacement interval for brake pads). The creation of pollution is a separate problem from the location of that pollution. Yes, EVs don't magically prevent the creation of pollution, but they can severely limit the creation of pollution in population centers, where they have the most immediate effect.
  - stephengillie 9y ago
    I live in a city and am not dying, in fact the air quality is very good. Do people who can afford electric cars live in the same cities where pollution is so bad that people are dying from it? Why don't they move to where the air quality is better? (Why move from a problem when you can make the problem move from you, I guess?) When the majority of pollution is coming from large trucks anyway, will swapping a few cars even matter?
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      Big city air can look great and still kill young children and old folks due to small particles. Most cities in Europe have terrible air thanks to the popularity of diesel autos, the low standards for pollution controls, and European governments being willing to ignore automakers who break the rules. Do you have a source for most pollution coming from large trucks?
      - stephengillie 9y ago
        Simply from the weight they carry, the energy required for this. Supplying a large city is neither cheap nor easy, and requires dozens or hundreds of daily shipments from dozens or hundreds of logistics companies. The majority of these happen during off-peak hours, to reduce load on the highway network. Lithium batteries still can't approach 10% of gasoline's energy density, so gasoline is mandatory for trucks, and will be until yet another new battery technology is not only discovered and brought to market, but mass-produced to the point that we have a battery-pollution problem. > the low standards for pollution controls Why don't they increase the standards? If people are dying there must be public outrage. Does Universal Healthcare cover pollution injuries? > European governments being willing to ignore automakers who break the rules. Are people protesting or working to change their governmental leadership? Or are they content to see their loved ones perish? If diesel cars are such a problem, why not outlaw these? Then only outlaws will drive them. Do you have a source for particulates killing children in cities?
        9y ago
- aoeusnth1 9y ago
  I thought the underlying issue was people dying from exposure to pollution? Or is that not something that you're concerned about?
- stupidcar 9y ago
  It solves the problem of exposing hundreds of millions of people to multiple emission sources of highly deleterious fine particulates in their immediate vicinity, every single day. It's not rocket science, it's an obvious fact, and not a single person posting here can honestly claim not to understand it. Ignoring or downplaying it is a near criminal act of negligence.
dingo_bat 9y ago
> They move the pollution from a tailpipe feet away from people You can't move non-existent pollution. It hasn't occurred yet, so there's no "movement". Electric cars create pollution displaced from the location the car is used in.
- manmal 9y ago
  Are you saying that gasoline cars do not pollute? Check this out: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22126432 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22126432 Electric cars can be (and are) charged with power generated with low pollution methods (solar, wind, water turbine...), while a gasoline, or worse, diesel powered car, will always pollute. Additionally, e-cars are more power efficient, even after subtracting line and charging heat losses. Coal burning power plants are a problem on their own (e.g. high mercury emissions), so those should be shut down entirely IMO, and not be used to cover e-car power demands. They are problematic anyway because they can not change their output much, making them inflexible for modern requirements.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    No I am not saying gasoline cars don't pollute. I making the pedantic point that saying "electric cars move the pollution" is technically inaccurate. It is better to say "electric cars pollute in places physically displaced from where they are used".
    - barrkel 9y ago
      Any normal reading of English would understand a world before electric cars, and a world after electric cars, as having moved pollution. We're talking at a higher level of abstraction, where the mover is a change in the mix of polluters.

geezerjay 9y ago

> Electric cars do not remove pollution - they are not trees. They merely pollute at a greatly reduced rate. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that electric cars are replacing cars powered by an internal combustion engine. If you replace an IC engine with an electric motor then that source of pollution is removed, don't you agree? Furthermore, electric cars typically get their power from the national power grid, which generates power in a much more efficient way than your typical IC engine. On top of that, nowadays any power grid is being supplied by sources other fossil fuels. This shift away from fossil fuels towards renewable energy sources is being spearheaded by the European Union and reflected by their national action plans. This already resulted in some EU member-states breaking green energy records such as: * covering around 35% of their national power generation from renewable sources http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-green-technology-record-power-generation-35-per-cent-renewables-solar-wind-turbines-a7820156.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-green... * running the entire country over 4 days straight on renewable energy alone https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal-runs-for-four-days-straight-on-renewable-energy-alone https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/18/portugal... This is the energy production that is powering electric vehicles.