5 ms·

So far, the Infinite monkey theorem is just giving us an infinite number of javascript frameworks, and no Shakespeare

by sAbakumoff 9y ago

zzalpha 9y ago
Truly, in the JS world, it is the best of times, it is the blurst of times...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hinkley 9y ago
  That's Dickens, not Shakespeare! Your monkeys are going in the wrong direction.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Stupid monkeys!
kbr 9y ago
Honestly, I think libraries are great, if they improve on existing solutions and actually bring something new. Don't try and stop innovation just for the sake of having to make less decisions. Moon's purpose is to provide an API similar to Vue, while being less than half of the size, and having improved performance in most cases. Why try and stop something new without giving any valid criticism? If we all have a mindset like this, the web isn't going to ever improve.
- sAbakumoff 9y ago
  Hey it's just a joke, take it easy. I didn't mean to discourage the work of OP in any way.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  I guess that's where a bit of "static type" would make it easier. Different framework could explicitely back themselves against an API. With js, it's all implicit.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Well, to be a bit crotchety for a moment: Copying someone else's idea but doing it a little smaller or faster isn't exactly revolutionary. At this point, UI libraries are turning into the JS equivalent of programming languages (everyone is writing one, and few of them are that interesting). If you really want to improve the web, we're gonna need to think a bigger than this...
  - kbr 9y ago
    It might not be revolutionary, but it _is_ an improvement. I just don't like when people say they hate something because they don't want to make decisions. I'd rather have feedback than someone ranting about "just another Javascript framework". Moon has the core features of Vue, but it's started going in a different direction. I'd love any feedback and to hear your thoughts :)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      Well, so first of all, it wasn't a rant, it was a joke and a bit of a jab, and you gotta admit these days there's good reason for people to be... uhh... skeptical about yet-another-JS-library. Second, that reaction isn't about not wanting to "make decisions"... that simplifies a rather complex set of thoughts and beliefs that are driven by the often-comical Javascript world, which appears to favour extreme complexity, constant churn and obsolescence, a near-complete absence of standards or best practices, duplication of effort, and fragmentation. Of course, the flipside of this is rapid evolution, competition in a marketplace of ideas, etc, etc. Third, if you don't want people to see this effort as yet-another-UI-framework, it'd probably be a good idea to position the project as something other than "everyone else's good ideas, but smaller and faster" (lightly paraphrasing from the project landing page)!
      - kbr 9y ago
        Yeah, I was just saying my thoughts against the hate towards new JS frameworks in general. While this reaction was a joke, there are tons of people that would have been ranting about another Javascript framework. I am by no means trying to force people to use Moon. Instead, I am trying to show something that you might want to consider if you use and like Vue, as it is smaller and faster. I agree I might need to reposition this project and state a little more. But I've already clarified why I made this in an article I wrote[1]. [1] https://hackernoon.com/introducing-moon-1d44a99635f0 https://hackernoon.com/introducing-moon-1d44a99635f0
- coob 9y ago
  I agree wholeheartedly. This is demonstrably better than what already exists in the ways mentioned. I don't understand the 'shit on something new because there are similar things' mentality. It is the antithesis of the hacker spirit.
colbyh 9y ago
well by logical extension the theorem provides that at least one of these frameworks should end up being Shakespeare..so at least we have that going for us?
- sAbakumoff 9y ago
  There is very interesting wiki article about the theorem, highly recommend to read it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
erikpukinskis 9y ago
This is what research looks like. You keep trying new things, making small improvements if you can. But sometimes you just try something different and it's not better. The truth, with software, is you don't really know what the implications of a design change are until you use it. We know a lot about what's good and bad about React now because we used it for a ton of stuff. That's the equivalent of taking your test vehicle out on the roads and testing it. In order to do that testing, these things get posted on Hacker News. Making your library mostly error free, putting docs up on GitHub... That's just getting it ready to actually test the ideas in that library. The JavaScript community is one of the most research friendly communities out there. That's because we basically don't have a standard library, we have to send our entire application over the wire in less than a second, we can't really change the runtime, and people often want us to build new applications in a matter of days. I get it, there are other realms of software development where you just have standardized tools, where stability is supreme, where you want to write huge checks and get back predictable quantities of mostly error free software. I get that. But this comment shitting on JavaScript for changing too much, it's like making fun of a kid for saying weird stuff. If you want something comprehensible and predictable, go use something else! Let things be what they are. Appreciate that we have choices and different languages have different goals. Don't beat the same drum over and over of "JavaScript is too JavaScripty!"
- zzalpha 9y ago
  If you want something comprehensible and predictable, go use something else! Reflect upon this comment for a moment. What you just said is, if we want a comprehensible, predictable development ecosystem, we should just use something other than the web. Do you understand why this rebuttal is a bit ridiculous?
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    Honestly, no. I don't see what place ridicule has in a technical discussion.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
zzalpha 9y ago
Did this subthread get detached? I can't find it in the original post...
- grzm 9y ago
  It's not detached. Even if a thread is detached by a mod, in my experience it appears at the bottom of the post. A new feature was rolled out recently where some get rolled up and hidden by default. They're accessible by clicking the [+n] link in the header of the top-most comment of the thread. That's how this subthread appears to me currently. I'll look for the comment where I saw more details on this. Edit to add: I haven't been able to find the comment where this was mentioned. It was within the past couple of months, though.

So far, the Infinite monkey theorem is just giving us an infinite number of javascript frameworks, and no Shakespeare

zzalpha 9y ago

Truly, in the JS world, it is the best of times, it is the blurst of times...

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hinkley 9y ago
That's Dickens, not Shakespeare! Your monkeys are going in the wrong direction.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Stupid monkeys!

kbr 9y ago

Honestly, I think libraries are great, if they improve on existing solutions and actually bring something new. Don't try and stop innovation just for the sake of having to make less decisions. Moon's purpose is to provide an API similar to Vue, while being less than half of the size, and having improved performance in most cases. Why try and stop something new without giving any valid criticism? If we all have a mindset like this, the web isn't going to ever improve.

sAbakumoff 9y ago
Hey it's just a joke, take it easy. I didn't mean to discourage the work of OP in any way.
agumonkey 9y ago
I guess that's where a bit of "static type" would make it easier. Different framework could explicitely back themselves against an API. With js, it's all implicit.
zzalpha 9y ago
Well, to be a bit crotchety for a moment: Copying someone else's idea but doing it a little smaller or faster isn't exactly revolutionary. At this point, UI libraries are turning into the JS equivalent of programming languages (everyone is writing one, and few of them are that interesting). If you really want to improve the web, we're gonna need to think a bigger than this...
- kbr 9y ago
  It might not be revolutionary, but it _is_ an improvement. I just don't like when people say they hate something because they don't want to make decisions. I'd rather have feedback than someone ranting about "just another Javascript framework". Moon has the core features of Vue, but it's started going in a different direction. I'd love any feedback and to hear your thoughts :)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Well, so first of all, it wasn't a rant, it was a joke and a bit of a jab, and you gotta admit these days there's good reason for people to be... uhh... skeptical about yet-another-JS-library. Second, that reaction isn't about not wanting to "make decisions"... that simplifies a rather complex set of thoughts and beliefs that are driven by the often-comical Javascript world, which appears to favour extreme complexity, constant churn and obsolescence, a near-complete absence of standards or best practices, duplication of effort, and fragmentation. Of course, the flipside of this is rapid evolution, competition in a marketplace of ideas, etc, etc. Third, if you don't want people to see this effort as yet-another-UI-framework, it'd probably be a good idea to position the project as something other than "everyone else's good ideas, but smaller and faster" (lightly paraphrasing from the project landing page)!
    - kbr 9y ago
      Yeah, I was just saying my thoughts against the hate towards new JS frameworks in general. While this reaction was a joke, there are tons of people that would have been ranting about another Javascript framework. I am by no means trying to force people to use Moon. Instead, I am trying to show something that you might want to consider if you use and like Vue, as it is smaller and faster. I agree I might need to reposition this project and state a little more. But I've already clarified why I made this in an article I wrote[1]. [1] https://hackernoon.com/introducing-moon-1d44a99635f0 https://hackernoon.com/introducing-moon-1d44a99635f0
coob 9y ago
I agree wholeheartedly. This is demonstrably better than what already exists in the ways mentioned. I don't understand the 'shit on something new because there are similar things' mentality. It is the antithesis of the hacker spirit.

colbyh 9y ago

well by logical extension the theorem provides that at least one of these frameworks should end up being Shakespeare..so at least we have that going for us?

sAbakumoff 9y ago
There is very interesting wiki article about the theorem, highly recommend to read it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

erikpukinskis 9y ago

This is what research looks like. You keep trying new things, making small improvements if you can. But sometimes you just try something different and it's not better. The truth, with software, is you don't really know what the implications of a design change are until you use it. We know a lot about what's good and bad about React now because we used it for a ton of stuff. That's the equivalent of taking your test vehicle out on the roads and testing it. In order to do that testing, these things get posted on Hacker News. Making your library mostly error free, putting docs up on GitHub... That's just getting it ready to actually test the ideas in that library. The JavaScript community is one of the most research friendly communities out there. That's because we basically don't have a standard library, we have to send our entire application over the wire in less than a second, we can't really change the runtime, and people often want us to build new applications in a matter of days. I get it, there are other realms of software development where you just have standardized tools, where stability is supreme, where you want to write huge checks and get back predictable quantities of mostly error free software. I get that. But this comment shitting on JavaScript for changing too much, it's like making fun of a kid for saying weird stuff. If you want something comprehensible and predictable, go use something else! Let things be what they are. Appreciate that we have choices and different languages have different goals. Don't beat the same drum over and over of "JavaScript is too JavaScripty!"

zzalpha 9y ago
If you want something comprehensible and predictable, go use something else! Reflect upon this comment for a moment. What you just said is, if we want a comprehensible, predictable development ecosystem, we should just use something other than the web. Do you understand why this rebuttal is a bit ridiculous?
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  Honestly, no. I don't see what place ridicule has in a technical discussion.
  - zzalpha 9y ago

zzalpha 9y ago

Did this subthread get detached? I can't find it in the original post...

grzm 9y ago
It's not detached. Even if a thread is detached by a mod, in my experience it appears at the bottom of the post. A new feature was rolled out recently where some get rolled up and hidden by default. They're accessible by clicking the [+n] link in the header of the top-most comment of the thread. That's how this subthread appears to me currently. I'll look for the comment where I saw more details on this. Edit to add: I haven't been able to find the comment where this was mentioned. It was within the past couple of months, though.