4 ms·

I think it will be. People of the future will look at this time the same way we look back to when it was accepted to have human slaves. Medicine (and millions

I think it will be. People of the future will look at this time the same way we look back to when it was accepted to have human slaves. Medicine (and millions of other people) has already proven that we don't need meat to survive. We have plenty of alternatives now. But we are addicted to meat - because it gives us pleasure. But then you have to ask yourself, is it OK for sentient beings to horribly suffer for us[1], so we can experience some pleasure that could be easily achieved by consuming alternative foods[2] and shifting our perception. Consuming meat is also not the best way to efficiently feed the world. Here is what Dr Neil Barnard says about bacon: Power Foods for the Brain (17min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_ONFix_e4k [1] Earthlings - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc2oizSsmUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc2oizSsmUs (I challenge you to watch this and not think 'WTF') [2] Beyond Meat - great presentation by Ethan Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x8jfiaLCPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x8jfiaLCPY

wolco 9y ago
Or we will look back at at vegans and see them as an extreme version of a normal healthy adult. Much the same way we place healthy values on skinny people when taken to the extreme it becomes unhealthy and counter productive. If animals can think and they eat other animals perhaps they will be able to teach us why it may be an acceptable choice.
- cryodesign 9y ago
  A few things: * Veganism isn't about health[1]. It's about avoiding exploitation of other sentient and intelligent beings and reducing suffering on many levels. * The difference between us and other animals is that we have the ability of critical thinking. We can change our attitude and mind when presented with new information. A lion can't do this (also, a lion needs meat to survive, modern humans don't). There is a great quote by Aaron Swartz[2] and in that vein I encourage you to watch the videos that were posted in this thread - you might be surprised. [1] "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.[...]" [2] “Think deeply about things. Don’t just go along because that’s the way things are or that’s what your friends say. Consider the effects, consider the alternatives, but most importantly, just think.”
  - wolco 9y ago
    What is your take on the morally of eating plants. Plants are living creatures some would say sentient beings. Recent research is showing they feel pain, communicate with other plants. Do they deserve the same protection?
    - cryodesign 9y ago
      Good question. Imagine plants feel pain like other animals and like we do. If our objective is to avoid suffering and environmental damage as much as possible, which one would you choose: 1) Eat animals and plants. Remember the animals you eat also eat plants. This creates maximum suffering and damage. 2) Eat plants only. This creates less suffering and damage than option 1. To answer your question though, if it's scientifically proven that plants are sentient and feel pain like we do (i.e. suffer) then I would only eat what plants produce (e.g. nuts, legumes, apples, etc) rather than the plant itself (e.g. carrots).
      - pharrington 9y ago
        If it's scientifically proven that plants are sentient and feel pain (I'm dropping the like conjunction because that's pushing it past the breaking point), you'd prefer keeping them alive in perpetuity to continually rip off their genitals over killing them outright? Personally, at least until we can efficiently synthesize arbitrary dietary proteins, fats, and fibers, I'll keep using my computer built from rare earths mined with exploited workers to post about the delicious, factory-slaughtered chicken I just ate.
        cryodesign 9y ago
        Why does it have to be black or white? It's a spectrum. Or as pmoriarty greatly put it further down: 'If one can't save everything, one must save nothing?' You should watch the presentation by Ethan Brown, he talks about creating meat using plant protein. He's a great entrepreneur and 'hacker'. You might enjoy it.
    - balfirevic 9y ago
- muninn_ 9y ago
  The issue with your last sentence is that you're confusing thinking with the ability to have higher order reasoning skills. Animals most assuredly think. It's a matter of orders of magnitude difference, not a fundamental difference. Just as a genius thinks in a way that is far superior to a simpleton. Both think. For some reason we've got it in our collective heads that because your cat can't sit at the table and have coffee with you that it's ok to destroy it in gruesome and horrible ways and somehow because it "doesn't think" that nothing bad is going on. Does the animal not feel pain? How do I know that you feel pain? Because you say it? How is that fundamentally different than the whimpers and cries and reaction of a different animal?
pmoriarty 9y ago
"..you have to ask yourself, is it OK for sentient beings to horribly suffer for us, so we can experience some pleasure that could be easily achieved by consuming alternative foods and shifting our perception" One can readily see that the answer to this question is "yes" even when the suffering is that of humans, much less animals. Many people readily consume products that are created in sweatshops, that are the product or cause of wars and/or environmental damage that has severe (and often deadly) consequences on other humans. Most people don't really care enough to change their consumption habits. Out of sight, out of mind is a maxim many live by both when they eat and when they buy. Few people want to look in to the proverbial sausage factory or slaughterhouse to find out how their food is made, or in sweatshops to find out how their clothes are made. May if they did they'd change their consumption habits, but most don't really want to. They'd rather bury their head in the sand and enjoy their life. As long as they or their loved ones don't directly suffer the consequences, they effectively couldn't care less how their pleasure was got.
- peepopeep 9y ago
  I fall into this category of people. How should I feel about myself?
  - herbst 9y ago
    Stop

wolco 9y ago

Or we will look back at at vegans and see them as an extreme version of a normal healthy adult. Much the same way we place healthy values on skinny people when taken to the extreme it becomes unhealthy and counter productive. If animals can think and they eat other animals perhaps they will be able to teach us why it may be an acceptable choice.

cryodesign 9y ago
A few things: * Veganism isn't about health[1]. It's about avoiding exploitation of other sentient and intelligent beings and reducing suffering on many levels. * The difference between us and other animals is that we have the ability of critical thinking. We can change our attitude and mind when presented with new information. A lion can't do this (also, a lion needs meat to survive, modern humans don't). There is a great quote by Aaron Swartz[2] and in that vein I encourage you to watch the videos that were posted in this thread - you might be surprised. [1] "Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.[...]" [2] “Think deeply about things. Don’t just go along because that’s the way things are or that’s what your friends say. Consider the effects, consider the alternatives, but most importantly, just think.”
- wolco 9y ago
  What is your take on the morally of eating plants. Plants are living creatures some would say sentient beings. Recent research is showing they feel pain, communicate with other plants. Do they deserve the same protection?
  - cryodesign 9y ago
    Good question. Imagine plants feel pain like other animals and like we do. If our objective is to avoid suffering and environmental damage as much as possible, which one would you choose: 1) Eat animals and plants. Remember the animals you eat also eat plants. This creates maximum suffering and damage. 2) Eat plants only. This creates less suffering and damage than option 1. To answer your question though, if it's scientifically proven that plants are sentient and feel pain like we do (i.e. suffer) then I would only eat what plants produce (e.g. nuts, legumes, apples, etc) rather than the plant itself (e.g. carrots).
    - pharrington 9y ago
      If it's scientifically proven that plants are sentient and feel pain (I'm dropping the like conjunction because that's pushing it past the breaking point), you'd prefer keeping them alive in perpetuity to continually rip off their genitals over killing them outright? Personally, at least until we can efficiently synthesize arbitrary dietary proteins, fats, and fibers, I'll keep using my computer built from rare earths mined with exploited workers to post about the delicious, factory-slaughtered chicken I just ate.
      - cryodesign 9y ago
        Why does it have to be black or white? It's a spectrum. Or as pmoriarty greatly put it further down: 'If one can't save everything, one must save nothing?' You should watch the presentation by Ethan Brown, he talks about creating meat using plant protein. He's a great entrepreneur and 'hacker'. You might enjoy it.
  - balfirevic 9y ago
muninn_ 9y ago
The issue with your last sentence is that you're confusing thinking with the ability to have higher order reasoning skills. Animals most assuredly think. It's a matter of orders of magnitude difference, not a fundamental difference. Just as a genius thinks in a way that is far superior to a simpleton. Both think. For some reason we've got it in our collective heads that because your cat can't sit at the table and have coffee with you that it's ok to destroy it in gruesome and horrible ways and somehow because it "doesn't think" that nothing bad is going on. Does the animal not feel pain? How do I know that you feel pain? Because you say it? How is that fundamentally different than the whimpers and cries and reaction of a different animal?

pmoriarty 9y ago

"..you have to ask yourself, is it OK for sentient beings to horribly suffer for us, so we can experience some pleasure that could be easily achieved by consuming alternative foods and shifting our perception" One can readily see that the answer to this question is "yes" even when the suffering is that of humans, much less animals. Many people readily consume products that are created in sweatshops, that are the product or cause of wars and/or environmental damage that has severe (and often deadly) consequences on other humans. Most people don't really care enough to change their consumption habits. Out of sight, out of mind is a maxim many live by both when they eat and when they buy. Few people want to look in to the proverbial sausage factory or slaughterhouse to find out how their food is made, or in sweatshops to find out how their clothes are made. May if they did they'd change their consumption habits, but most don't really want to. They'd rather bury their head in the sand and enjoy their life. As long as they or their loved ones don't directly suffer the consequences, they effectively couldn't care less how their pleasure was got.

peepopeep 9y ago
I fall into this category of people. How should I feel about myself?
- herbst 9y ago
  Stop