3 ms·

> The only way you can change something by protesting is by projecting power. You do that either by the way you do the protesting, i.e. by actively engaging the

by abhi3 9y ago

> The only way you can change something by protesting is by projecting power. You do that either by the way you do the protesting, i.e. by actively engaging the police forces in trying to reach the seats of power (Parliament, Government's buildings) >Movements like BLM are ineffectual when protesting because they do neither Can you imagine the tone of public discourse if it even appeared that BLM was trying to overwhelm the seat of governance? I mean people scream 'thug' and call in the National Guard at the sight of African-Americans breaking a supermarket window what do you think they'll do if it appears they might overthrow a government (even a local one)?

belorn 9y ago
I am currently giving a other interpretation of paganel comment that "projecting power" don't mean violence, but rather to carry voter support. Riots and revolutions have shown historically to be very effective at: getting people killed, at decreasing voter support, giving the opposing side more power, and be successful at toppling power. In more instable regions where such events happen in regular waves, the ability of violence to cause lasting change is minimal to none unless you are willing to commit genocide.
cisanti 9y ago
That's the point, looting doesn't solve anything. If for an example, BLM would convince all the nurses to halt their job, all the firemen -- that would make a difference. But by the look of it, BLM does not have the support of the average working class person. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not from the United States. The police killings are rare, especially when it comes to killing black people and the topic is only political.
- evolve2017 9y ago
  I find this very curious - why do you think this movement came to attention if the killings are rare? Also, your comment implies that there's an acceptable number of police killings of unarmed/fleeing suspects - what would you say that number is in your country?
  - cisanti 9y ago
    Because media needs to write about something and they don't care if they fuck up the country and divide you? More white people are shot by police officers in your country, yet black community has a bigger crime rate. [0]:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/1... The article wants to talk about population but we all know that crime rate is what matters. If anything, you should protest all the killings, but media has turned into a racial issue.
  - guildwriter 9y ago
    One possible explanation is that's what the accepted narrative is based on media coverage. Also you have to get a bit specific when you consider what kind of killings are rare. US Police shoot and kill quite a few people to be sure. But statistically, shooting of unarmed black males is less than 4% of fatal police shootings. > "A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police. But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evi... http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf > "The conventional thinking about police-involved shootings, and some scientific research, has been that black suspects are more likely to be shot than white suspects because of an implicit racial bias among police officers. But now a new study has found exactly the opposite: even with white officers who do have racial biases, officers are three times less likely to shoot unarmed black suspects than unarmed white suspects." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27...
    - evolve2017 9y ago
      I remember seeing this result. It's tantalizing but - and in the absence of mandated reporting perhaps the best we may have. I will take a look at the paper but I wonder what biases exist in officer-initiated reporting. Lastly, we're setting a low bar if our standard for police mistreatment is killing as opposed to inappropriate behavior, writ large. I do see your point, but I'm not sure this data undercuts the importance of a movement like BLM. EDIT: For the second link, I'm not sure how much I believe a psychology experiment in this setting - I don't know this literature but my a priori bias is that the individuals who would do this type of study in Seattle are not representative of the median US police officer
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  >The police killings are rare, especially when it comes to killing black people and the topic is only political. Viewing it in this way is a bit ahistorical. The problem is not just police violence, but a generally turbid relationship between law enforcement and communities of color. There is widespread distrust on both sides, so when a killing happens it is difficult for the community to take it in good faith. Also, for comparison, the last time there was a high profile wrongful police killing of a white person, the police chief of Minneapolis had to resign almost immediately. I'm hard-pressed to find the last time one had to quit after the killing of a non-white one.
  - cisanti 9y ago
    But considering your population and crime rate in black communities, it's a nonissue in a sense that it happens so rarely. It's political and media issue. The latter needs to write about something so they don't care about the consequences. You have distorted world view that there are only two ways of living. Either democrat or republican and it all comes with a package, beliefs and media you watch. [0]:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/1... The article wants to talk about population but we all know that crime rate is what matters. If anything, you should protest all the killings, but media has turned into a racial issue.
    - dashundchen 9y ago
      If you're going to argue that it's crime rate, it's disingenuous to then link to a story talking about raw numbers, not rate - you should know the rate of black Americans killed by police is over double the rate of white Americans. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... The point of BL M and many protests is not only the number of people killed by police, it's a symbol of a more widespread issue of racial injustice, specifically in the criminal justice system. Why are our increasingly militarized police murdering and brutalizing unarmed or non-aggressive citizens? Aren't these people they're supposed to be protecting? Why are we letting white supremacists and racists in our police forces? http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-i... Why is there almost a gap of 20% in sentencing rate between black and white people, for the same crimes? https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13... Same for the disparity in conviction rates. Did you know many states strip felons of the right to vote? Why are drug crimes, despite similar usage rates among races, so skewed in actual prosecutions and incarcerations towards blacks? https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-race https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-r...

by abhi3 9y ago

belorn 9y ago

I am currently giving a other interpretation of paganel comment that "projecting power" don't mean violence, but rather to carry voter support. Riots and revolutions have shown historically to be very effective at: getting people killed, at decreasing voter support, giving the opposing side more power, and be successful at toppling power. In more instable regions where such events happen in regular waves, the ability of violence to cause lasting change is minimal to none unless you are willing to commit genocide.

cisanti 9y ago

That's the point, looting doesn't solve anything. If for an example, BLM would convince all the nurses to halt their job, all the firemen -- that would make a difference. But by the look of it, BLM does not have the support of the average working class person. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not from the United States. The police killings are rare, especially when it comes to killing black people and the topic is only political.

evolve2017 9y ago
I find this very curious - why do you think this movement came to attention if the killings are rare? Also, your comment implies that there's an acceptable number of police killings of unarmed/fleeing suspects - what would you say that number is in your country?
- cisanti 9y ago
  Because media needs to write about something and they don't care if they fuck up the country and divide you? More white people are shot by police officers in your country, yet black community has a bigger crime rate. [0]:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/1... The article wants to talk about population but we all know that crime rate is what matters. If anything, you should protest all the killings, but media has turned into a racial issue.
- guildwriter 9y ago
  One possible explanation is that's what the accepted narrative is based on media coverage. Also you have to get a bit specific when you consider what kind of killings are rare. US Police shoot and kill quite a few people to be sure. But statistically, shooting of unarmed black males is less than 4% of fatal police shootings. > "A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police. But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias." https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evi... http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf > "The conventional thinking about police-involved shootings, and some scientific research, has been that black suspects are more likely to be shot than white suspects because of an implicit racial bias among police officers. But now a new study has found exactly the opposite: even with white officers who do have racial biases, officers are three times less likely to shoot unarmed black suspects than unarmed white suspects." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27...
  - evolve2017 9y ago
    I remember seeing this result. It's tantalizing but - and in the absence of mandated reporting perhaps the best we may have. I will take a look at the paper but I wonder what biases exist in officer-initiated reporting. Lastly, we're setting a low bar if our standard for police mistreatment is killing as opposed to inappropriate behavior, writ large. I do see your point, but I'm not sure this data undercuts the importance of a movement like BLM. EDIT: For the second link, I'm not sure how much I believe a psychology experiment in this setting - I don't know this literature but my a priori bias is that the individuals who would do this type of study in Seattle are not representative of the median US police officer
tacomonstrous 9y ago
>The police killings are rare, especially when it comes to killing black people and the topic is only political. Viewing it in this way is a bit ahistorical. The problem is not just police violence, but a generally turbid relationship between law enforcement and communities of color. There is widespread distrust on both sides, so when a killing happens it is difficult for the community to take it in good faith. Also, for comparison, the last time there was a high profile wrongful police killing of a white person, the police chief of Minneapolis had to resign almost immediately. I'm hard-pressed to find the last time one had to quit after the killing of a non-white one.
- cisanti 9y ago
  But considering your population and crime rate in black communities, it's a nonissue in a sense that it happens so rarely. It's political and media issue. The latter needs to write about something so they don't care about the consequences. You have distorted world view that there are only two ways of living. Either democrat or republican and it all comes with a package, beliefs and media you watch. [0]:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/1... The article wants to talk about population but we all know that crime rate is what matters. If anything, you should protest all the killings, but media has turned into a racial issue.
  - dashundchen 9y ago
    If you're going to argue that it's crime rate, it's disingenuous to then link to a story talking about raw numbers, not rate - you should know the rate of black Americans killed by police is over double the rate of white Americans. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/... The point of BL M and many protests is not only the number of people killed by police, it's a symbol of a more widespread issue of racial injustice, specifically in the criminal justice system. Why are our increasingly militarized police murdering and brutalizing unarmed or non-aggressive citizens? Aren't these people they're supposed to be protecting? Why are we letting white supremacists and racists in our police forces? http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement/ http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fbi-white-supremacists-i... Why is there almost a gap of 20% in sentencing rate between black and white people, for the same crimes? https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13... Same for the disparity in conviction rates. Did you know many states strip felons of the right to vote? Why are drug crimes, despite similar usage rates among races, so skewed in actual prosecutions and incarcerations towards blacks? https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-race https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-r...