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Very good. I wish you all the success. But I have a (side) question. You are using Makefile while targeting non-nix platforms. Why? It seems to me it is the st

by 0xFFC 9y ago

Very good. I wish you all the success. But I have a (side) question. You are using Makefile while targeting non-nix platforms. Why? It seems to me it is the strangest combination ever.

mivanchev 9y ago
For convenience! Make is a powerful software and GNU Make is readily available for Windows, e.g. as part of MinGW. I also actively use it for my projects, because it's just kind of always there when you need a build system and you can put together an initial Makefile real quick.
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  Isn't all of these arguments applicable to CMake? Considering GNU Make is not itself available in Windows and you should install MinGW for getting make.
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    Windows is a pain to program on, and MinGW alleviates that somewhat. I do use CMake though, but I still want to use "normal" clang, so I have to generate a unix makefile. I don't want to maintain two sets of build systems.
    - stinos 9y ago
      Windows is a pain to program on, It's really not, if you know how to do it. But that goes for any OS out there. I mean, put a seasoned visual-studio-on-windows-only dev in front of a linux box and tell him to set up the build of a non-trivial application and watch what happens. Chances are pretty high the answer is 'linux is a pain to program on' :] but I still want to use "normal" clang, so I have to generate a unix makefile https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/03/07/use-any-c-compiler-with-visual-studio/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/03/07/use-any-c... it's still relatively young but seems to work quite ok
      - bnolsen 9y ago
        windows not being able to mix and match object files compiled in different ways is really disastrous. On linux and windows I always work in release mode. If I have problems on the linux side I can target compile 1 or 2 object files debug, relink, run and get stack traces if I need. That's all totally independent of programming environment.
        pjmlp 9y ago
        That has nothing to do with Windows vs GNU/Linux, rather the compilers being used. UNIX is more than just GNU/Linux, and Windows compilers are more than just Visual Studio.
        stinos 9y ago
        True (apart from where you say 'windows' when meaning 'msvc toolset' as pointed out). It's actually the first time I see this come up as first and only argument against msvc actually. Would be interesting to find actual stats on this, but it's possible this doesn't come up often because it's sort of a minor issue; minor in the sense that it is not a real issue for the majority of users (though that doesn't mean that if you are affected by the issue that it can't be a dealbreaker). Maybe there are more people out there used to mostly working with debug builds? Or maybe because the overhead of having to build eveything in debug mode again only becomes significant with codebases much bigger than the average?
    - maccard 9y ago
      You wouldn't have to maintain two sets of build systems. You write one cmake file, and it generates unix makefiles or visual studio projects. As a windows developer, I groan whenever I find a makefile..
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Only for UNIX devs that don't want to learn any other way. I am programming Windows since version 3.0, have experience across multiple types of operating systems, had a phase of my life of being a GNU/Linux zealot and where I like to spend my time is on Windows. I live on my IDEs and there is hardly a CLI feature that can't be better done within a REPL environment.
- jcelerier 9y ago
  " and GNU Make is readily available for Windows, e.g. as part of MinGW." ... I don't think we have the same definition of "readily available". First you have to choose between two dozens MinGW distros, some up-to-date, some not, choose if you want to use Windows or Unix paths, etc etc.

by 0xFFC 9y ago

Very good. I wish you all the success. But I have a (side) question. You are using Makefile while targeting non-nix platforms. Why? It seems to me it is the strangest combination ever.

mivanchev 9y ago

For convenience! Make is a powerful software and GNU Make is readily available for Windows, e.g. as part of MinGW. I also actively use it for my projects, because it's just kind of always there when you need a build system and you can put together an initial Makefile real quick.

0xFFC 9y ago
Isn't all of these arguments applicable to CMake? Considering GNU Make is not itself available in Windows and you should install MinGW for getting make.
- fwsgonzo 9y ago
  Windows is a pain to program on, and MinGW alleviates that somewhat. I do use CMake though, but I still want to use "normal" clang, so I have to generate a unix makefile. I don't want to maintain two sets of build systems.
  - stinos 9y ago
    Windows is a pain to program on, It's really not, if you know how to do it. But that goes for any OS out there. I mean, put a seasoned visual-studio-on-windows-only dev in front of a linux box and tell him to set up the build of a non-trivial application and watch what happens. Chances are pretty high the answer is 'linux is a pain to program on' :] but I still want to use "normal" clang, so I have to generate a unix makefile https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/03/07/use-any-c-compiler-with-visual-studio/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2017/03/07/use-any-c... it's still relatively young but seems to work quite ok
    - bnolsen 9y ago
      windows not being able to mix and match object files compiled in different ways is really disastrous. On linux and windows I always work in release mode. If I have problems on the linux side I can target compile 1 or 2 object files debug, relink, run and get stack traces if I need. That's all totally independent of programming environment.
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        That has nothing to do with Windows vs GNU/Linux, rather the compilers being used. UNIX is more than just GNU/Linux, and Windows compilers are more than just Visual Studio.
      - stinos 9y ago
        True (apart from where you say 'windows' when meaning 'msvc toolset' as pointed out). It's actually the first time I see this come up as first and only argument against msvc actually. Would be interesting to find actual stats on this, but it's possible this doesn't come up often because it's sort of a minor issue; minor in the sense that it is not a real issue for the majority of users (though that doesn't mean that if you are affected by the issue that it can't be a dealbreaker). Maybe there are more people out there used to mostly working with debug builds? Or maybe because the overhead of having to build eveything in debug mode again only becomes significant with codebases much bigger than the average?
  - maccard 9y ago
    You wouldn't have to maintain two sets of build systems. You write one cmake file, and it generates unix makefiles or visual studio projects. As a windows developer, I groan whenever I find a makefile..
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Only for UNIX devs that don't want to learn any other way. I am programming Windows since version 3.0, have experience across multiple types of operating systems, had a phase of my life of being a GNU/Linux zealot and where I like to spend my time is on Windows. I live on my IDEs and there is hardly a CLI feature that can't be better done within a REPL environment.
jcelerier 9y ago
" and GNU Make is readily available for Windows, e.g. as part of MinGW." ... I don't think we have the same definition of "readily available". First you have to choose between two dozens MinGW distros, some up-to-date, some not, choose if you want to use Windows or Unix paths, etc etc.